Denying the Doctrine of Eternal Damnation

 

Note: To see our most recent posting, please click here: https://jeffandcindy.wordpress.com/

UPDATE: If you are a follower of Harold Camping or a listener of Family Radio, please see the posting for 13 November 2009 by clicking here: https://jeffandcindy.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/

 We encourage those who ardently follow anyone who denies the doctrine of eternal damnation to read the posting carefully.  Scriptural interpretation comes not from our human intellect but from the illuminating power of the Holy Spirit…Who is not the Author of confusion.  Jeff and Cindy

Yes, you read the title of this posting correctly.  There are teachers who are now teaching that there is no eternal damnation of the unbelievers.  How sad it is to see once faithful teachers of reformed biblical doctrine sink ever deeper into the miry pit of falsehood.

Many people are being led astray by those who now teach that there will be no eternal damnation of the unsaved.  God instead will simply annihilate them.  Some of these same teachers also state that the rapture of the believers will be on May 21, 2011 followed by 5 months of tribulation and terror on the remaining unbelievers on earth.  Then, when the LORD returns on Thursday October 20, 2011, unbelievers will be annihilated.  How is this any different from prominent Jehovah’s Witness’ teaching? 

In the Bible, “perish” doesn’t mean we simply cease to exist as these latest teachings instruct.  To be sure, that’s what most people would like for it to mean.  However, letting the Bible serve as its own interpreter, we learn that “perish” means to come under constant torment forever separated from God because of our sin.  Contrary to merely ceasing to exist, Scripture instead paints a very different – and much uglier picture – likening it to a furnace of fire, outer darkness, weeping & gnashing of teeth, and unceasing misery.  The nonbeliever’s misery will not end on Thursday the 20th of October 2011.

 

Don’t let anyone erroneously tell you that when you die, all your troubles will go away after a little bit of suffering.  Being sinful, we’d like to believe that fairy tale, wouldn’t we?  Thankfully, God is honest with us in His Word about our predicament. 

The Bible declares The wages of sin is death [Romans 6] – and the spiritual death God has in view is eternal. 

He who has ears to hear, let him hear…

 

(1 John 2:19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.  

To God Be The Glory!

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77 Responses to Denying the Doctrine of Eternal Damnation

  1. johannes_11 says:

    Praise God for the True Everlasting Gospel being proclaimed all over the whole world…!!!

    (Rev 14:6) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    (Rev 14:7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    (Rev 14:8) And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

  2. Greg Goodchild says:

    From the other side of the concept. The Bible says that the wicked will be devoured. Rev 20:9 The wicked are not given the gift of eternal life but they are to have death. Romans 6:23
    The Bible says that the wicked will be as ashes under the feet of the righteous. Malachi 4:1-2 The wicked will be no more. Psalms 104:35 When God is done with the wicked you can not find them for they shall not be. Psalms 37:10,20 Whatever your thinking is about the destruction of the wicked you need to take these texts into account as well as Rev 14:11 and REv 20:10. There is perfect harmony with all of God’s Word we just have to surrender to it.

  3. DAT says:

    One thing to note is that Camping is refuting many years of his own teaching with this new doctrine. He has been one of the most ardent hell and damnation emphasizers of any evangelist in recent memory.
    BTW, we linked to your blog at our new site: http://www.departout.com/viewtopic.php?t=4

  4. Sean says:

    FYI: Harold Camping says the last day is Oct. 21, 2011, not Oct. 20.

  5. RG says:

    Friends,

    Could you be kind enough to validate this post with a link or something more than opinion posted? I am looking for scripture that Mr. Camping has referenced in his interpretations. Also, show me his interpretation references as well. This post is the first I have heard of Harold Camping supposedly discounting eternal damnation for all the un-saved. As DAT mentioned Camping would tell to you straight about the lake of fire and eternal torment. Thank you.

  6. When my friend told me that some of the followers of Harold Camping were upset that he was now teaching annihilationism i said “NO WAY would Camping teach that” i was STUNNED to find out that it was a true statement and that Harold is now preaching the heresy of annihilationism.

    And what is more absurd is the fact that most Campingites are now in agreement with him.

    Chris
    Jesus is LORD!

  7. I suspect this wont be the last heresy that Harold teaches before he goes to his appointed place.

  8. Sean, you must have not been listening carefully to your leader Harold Camping, he teaches that the last day is October 20th 2011.

  9. Susan says:

    Excuse me, I don’t mean to be rude, but are most of your readers in denial? Bottom line… NO ONE is supposed to figure out the day of Christ’s return! Not little Harold, not me and NOT YOU! If a person proclaims to be truly saved and has faith that Christ is coming back, he or she doesn’t need to know a date and time, only to be ready. Why would they sabbotage themselves and go against God’s Hold Word by trying to predict Christ’s return.

    P.S. My first issue with Harold is that he seems to be very controlling and his interpretations sound a bit creepy. Secondly, it is concerning to me about his books. Usually, there’s a good reason why well-known, established publishers — especially Christian publishing companies — will reject certain manuscripts. They receive a lot of junky manuscripts and will usually not even consider a manuscript without a proposal letter. My question is: Why are Harold’s books self-published by the same company that he manages? I know it’s probably cheaper, but you guess what else could be lacking? If his books were indeed “factual,” why doesn’t he try to get them published by a well-known publisher? We all know that answer.

  10. Susan says:

    It’s very late and I apologize in the first paragraph that I wrote: it should read: God’s Holy Word.

    Thank you.

  11. Jeff & Cindy says:

    Susan,

    Thank you for taking the time to offer your comments. We appreciate it.

    I believe most of the world is in denial — in denial about the badness of sin, in denial about the goodness of the gospel, and in denial over the uniqueness of Christ as mankind’s only Saviour. For many years, Mr. Camping was a faithful expositor of reformed theology; however, in the last 6-7 years, he has strayed far from the fold in terms of his doctrinal teachings.

    Our aim with the blog site and its sister web site is to proclaim the truth of the gospel as faithfully as we can. To be sure, topics such as this generate much debate, and we hope many readers will “tune in” to see what is written. In doing so, they are exposed to God’s Word…and He promises that the proclamation of His Word will not return void.

    In Christ,

  12. Jeff & Cindy says:

    RG,

    By all means. You can hear Mr. Camping himself on this matter by visiting the following URL from Family Radio: http://www.familyradio.com/english/connect/video_archive/

    Once the page loads, then click on “Alameda Fellowship Open Forum”. You can select either the low-bandwidth or high-bandwidth connection. He discusses his new interpretation of hell at approx the 4 min 40 sec mark.

    In Christ,

  13. Sean says:

    Chris Jesus’ Boy said: “And what is more absurd is the fact that most Campingites are now in agreement with him.”

    That’s not true at all. We all know that some verses imply that hell is death and some imply that torment will go on forever and ever. Harold Camping is teaching that the truth about hell has been sealed up as part of the whole “time and judgment” being revealed at the time of the end. Is he right or wrong? If he’s wrong, you can always call 1-800 322-5385 weeknights between 5:30 and 7:00 p.m. pacific time, and share.

    “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” John 17:17

  14. Dear Jeff and Cindy,

    A friend of mine emailed me with this blog address and particularly asked me to look at the post by “Christian” dated December 10th. I was therefore disappointed not to find it here.

    Could you please re-publish it? Or, (I am strongly speculating now) if there was some reason that you found it offensive, I would appreciate it if you could email it to me so that I might read it (as publishers you of course have my email.)

    Thanks!

  15. Jeff & Cindy says:

    Dear Dann,

    Thanks for your comment. We welcome this opportunity to address the many “Comment spams” this site has received.

    Over the last few weeks, hundreds of comments have been posted here all of which are verbatim identical to each other. The many emails recently received from drmkpr1@aol.com were all identical to each other. We are much more interested in hearing visitor’s original comments — emphasis on “original” — rather than have people spam us with articles they’ve copied/pasted from elsewhere. We’ve seen the “If Hell is real…” article many times and in many different places. In fact, there are numerous WordPress blogs which have it posted.

    A quick scan of the various Comments posted on this site will reveal that we certainly are not censoring pro Family Radio or pro Harold Camping sentiments. Cumulatively speaking, there are more pro Harold Camping & FR postings throughout this site than any other single topic. We have however chosen not to propagate this particular article.

    Thanks again for your comment and let us reiterate one last time that we welcome original thoughts/comments on the material presented here.

    To God Be The Glory!

  16. Jon says:

    Sean,

    Calling Harold’s show is a foolish endeavor. He cannot be taught by any but himself. I have sat in his home and watched as he “listened” to the suggestions of others and shot those comments down with which he disagreed. This was, by the way, in the context of “revising” the Belgic Confession. Harold, plain and simple, is a cult leader, andif you follow him, you are a cult member.

    Jeff and Cindy,

    I appreciate your post. Good stuff. But I will add that Harold has NEVER really understood the Christian faith very well. He used to be better no doubt but never really got it. To him the Reformed faith and Christianity really just his version of the Five Points of Calvinism. Nevertheless, even if at one time he understood, that time was a long time ago, maybe sometime in the ’80s before he left the CRC.

    Jon

  17. Jon, the Belgic confession contains many errors, it was written by man.

  18. Marcus says:

    NOTE: The following Comment has been redacted by the Blog Site owners for two reasons: it was not original and it was unattributed. You can find the deleted article in many places by googling “Biblical Truth About Hell” on the internet. Additionally, Marcus failed to attribute it to its original source. That’s plagiarism and that’s not condoned on this site.

    THE BIBLICAL TRUTH ABOUT HELL

    ——————————————————————————–

  19. Lizzie says:

    I am very confused myself about harold camping, I do believe about the church age, but not to sure about 2011…anything is possible. But can some kindly give me the defination and how is harold camping using this word annihilationism? I just found out about this.

  20. Bill Crider says:

    I have listened to Harold Camping for many years now and you will find all those talking about 1994 leave out “1994?” This whole idea about he end in 2011 is based on the Calender of history. If the calender is wrong the date will be wrong, but if the caleder is in fact put in the Bible from God is it extrememly likely to happen. ADAM WAS 130 when Seth was born Gen.5;6 Seth was 105 when Enos was bornGen 5;6 SO the world was 235 years old at that time in histroy. The flood of Noah was 6023 G.T. ( 4990 BC) from the flood of Noahs day to 2011 is exactly 7000 years. God said as in the days of Noah. Noah was told to enter the ark and in 7 days I will flood the earth. IN II Peter 3:8 But beloved be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. Now read above to get the context. II peter3: 3-8 …….whereby the world that then was being overflowed with water, perished:……
    Please research this calender of History, you are reading this for a reason, May God Bless you with ears to hear and eyes to see, Amen.

  21. Anna says:

    But Bill, didn’t harold give the same calendar stuff of Jesus second coming in 1994? I don’t know, Harold Camping can be wrong…..he was wrong about his first prediction. And what about that no one knows the DAY or the HOUR? Harold camping is excately giving a date.

  22. barry says:

    I have listened to Mr. Camping for a number of years and felt he has failed on many times to truly show how to be saved. Acts 16:31 is a direct answer to a direct question. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved…and thy house” He argues that with his, “plead, O God, O God, could it be that even I might be included in those who are elect…” and so forth. I know of many who have simply took from the gracious hand of God the gifrt, the free gift, of forgiveness. Mr. Camping seems to be extremely rude, interupting people a nd not listening to their comment or question. I believe Scripture warns about those who answer a matter before it is stated. I count him as a false teacher. and wonder if he is truly saved. 1 John 5:12, 13 settles it for me. Paul the apostle stated his assurace when he said, “I know whom I have believed and am presuaded that He is able to keep that which I’ve committed unto Him against that day…” And my life’s verse is Phil. 1:6. God bless the ministry of warning the flock against enemies.

    Barr4y

  23. mike s says:

    Jack VanImpe is saying some things and well guess what its all scripture,,,so here I go: there will be no secret rapture that spoken of in 1theselonions4:14-18 if you just look at the scripture it is speaking of the ADVENT COMMING OF CHRIST…study this your self it is wrong teaching,for one thing it is our purpose on earth as christians to spread the gospel.NOT TO LIVE LAVISH LIVES IN GODS BLESSING look at rev18:4 not a call of rapture but a call of Gods children CHRISTIANS to separate our selves from the lavish world.Now how do we as christians edify each other if some leave the earth, I usded to think VanImpe was all wet about God not destroying the earth but it is true and guess what rev 20 and 21 speak of the new Jeuruslium sitting down on the physical place where it is now…..so get to work spreading the word of God …Time is ticking ,,,,,and fill your lamps with OIL

  24. mike s says:

    and may the blessing of God be upon you as spoken of in 1chron 4:9-10

  25. john l says:

    I have been in an analytical profession for years, so sincere analysis by an experienced analyst is something I greatly appreciate. This site is one of the better ones I have read commenting about Mr. Camping’s teachings. My offering on Mr. Camping is that after a number of years of listening to other bible teachers, and reading on my own, I have found him to be the most interested in drilling down into scripture to seek truth. As some of you know, he welcomes challenges for 1.5 hours every week night, and is open to correction (as apparently shown by his recent “annihilation” interpretation). It seems like people fall into one camp or another on his teachings – either brushing him off or defending him. It’s surprising to me that there doesn’t seem to be more people who don’t simply recognize him as a sincere and substantial human source, and as such, a source that should neither be disregarded out of hand, nor relied upon 100%. Oh, one note to Anna and others: read the next few verses after the “thief in the night” passage people often use to disregard Camping’s teachings about beleivers’ knowledge of the end times. Is anybody else out there preparing as if there is some chance Mr. Camping is right about 2011, but not as if it is a lock, given that Mr. Camping has a finite human mind (as he admits)? That seems like the prudent route.

  26. mike s says:

    THANKS JOHN,CAMPING, I HAVE FOUND IS VERY WELL RESEARCHED,I HAVE TO THINK THAT THE TRUTH FALLS HARD ON THE EARS OF THOSE THAT DONT BELIEVE.MY PASTOR COMES FROM THE CALVARY CHAPEL LINE.YET BELIEVES IN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE.I DONT SEE IT. THE REAL MESSAGE IS TIME IS AT HAND…PEOPLE SCOFF AT IT BECAUSE THEY HAVE HEARD ITFOR YEARS …MEUILLINIUMS NOW….TIME IS SHORT ,,THE REAL MESSAGE SHOULD BE GET THE GOSPEL OUT THERE BE A WITNESS FOR CHRIST THIS IS THE MEANING OF THE PRAYER OF JABEZ.

  27. Tony says:

    In the past, Harold Camping has always preached that new believers should find a Bible believing church and join it and get active in church activities and functions. Camping has always been a faithful church member and has always preached to support our pastors, elders and deacons. Recently Camping began preaching that the Great Tribulation began in 1988, the Rapture will happen in May of 2011 and the End of the World will happen in October of 2011. He has told believers to flee their churches. He has been teaching that Satan is in full control of the churches today. Camping says that the gospel is no longer being preached in the churches. I agree with Camping in that todays churches do not preach the gospel. Todays churches, in my view, preach a social message but do not teach directly from the Word of God. Our churches and our church leaders have failed us and Camping is absolutely correct on that point. Is Camping correct about his calculations regarding the end of the world? I’m not sure. Nevertheless, I still listen to his teaching regularly and find it very interesting. Could Camping be the messenger that God is sending to warn us about the end of the age? Could he be like a Jonah sent by God to warn us like Jonah warned Ninivah? Could he be a 21st century prophet? I don’t know. I’m not sure yet. However, when Camping points to the apostate churches of this day, he is absolutely correct! I believe that Satan completely controls todays churches and church leaders.

  28. Tony says:

    Much of the time, God allows things to happen that are contrary and confounding to man. Example, John the Baptist. In his day, he was merely a voice in the wilderness and not many people of that time and place went out into the desert to listen to him. He was a radical, an outcast and not someone to be taken seriously. Could this be what God is doing with Harold Camping. For sure, Camping is no charismatic person. He is very rough around the edges. He has no style. He’s rude at times. Seemingly, at times, his memory escapes him. But is he “Sent by God”? Is he the type of prophet that God would use to bring His message to mankind concerning the end of the world? I don’t know. I find that the more I listen to him and his teachings, the more I’m drawn to investigate his accuracy. Much of what he says is in keeping with what God says in His Word. For me, the jury is still out but I will keep on listening with great interest.

  29. Sharon says:

    James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”

    It is comforting to know that our Father in Heaven has provided a way for us to know the truth of all things. May we remember to rely on Him and Him alone for answers, through the medium of prayer.

    In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

  30. omolayo says:

    i want us christain to understand that christ is coming very soon and surely that the world will come to an end as recorded by the bible and by our lord jesus christ.we should be ready for the coming of christ and by doing this we wont be disturb by camping saying be it true or false cos we will be ready when the bridegroom come,depart from sin cos noone knows when christ will come again.

  31. Mary says:

    Doesn’t Christ himself say in Matt:

    24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    24:36 But of that day and hour KNOWETH NO MAN, no, not the angels of heaven, BUT MY FATHER ONLY.

    Unless Harold is calling Christ a Liar….he does not know….PERIOD. But we are told to

    24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    So if it happens today, or tomorrow and we are not ready, IT’S OUR OWN FAULT, NOT HAROLD CAMPING’S. But pray for him because he WILL receive the stricter judgement.

  32. mike s says:

    You know,its not just Harold, there are a lot of pointers at 2011 I dont think Harold is saying DAY AND HOUR.I remember 1994,but who could be more dissapointed than Harold.I dont like what he is also saying,who is and isnt saved after such and such date.All of that talk is relevent to 2011 being the truth and we will see about that wont we.LOOK,STUDY WITH COMMENTARYS NOT CONCORDECES PRAY FOR WISDOM AND FORGIVE EVEN HAROLD CAMPING,WE ARE ALL SINNERS AND FOR MANKIND CHRIST DIED,NOT EXCEPT ANYBODY,THAT MEANS EVEN HAROLD CAMPING,and I too will pray for him

  33. Bill Crider says:

    The 2011 date has derived from the Bible. The calendar of history is in the Bible. If the caledar is wrong then the day or end is wrong.
    Noah knew the flood was coming in 7 days and like wise God said he will do nothing except he reveal his secrets to his prophets. Close up the books until the time of the end ect. Joeseph did not know his wife until after Jesus was born. Christ knows the day and hour but had not experienced Damnation. Look into the calendar of history, its easy to fallow and see. Adam had seth when he was 130 and Seth had enoch when he was 105, now the world is 235 years old at that time right. The flood is 6023 years ago and is exactly 7000 to 2011 now read II peter about the flood in Noahs day. WOW! A thousand days as one year and a year as a thousand days. to he that has spirtitual eyes to see let them see. AMEN Bill

  34. John L says:

    On Jan 2, I gave a vague reference to a verse that Camping uses to indicate that the saved aren’t destined to be ignorant of the last day. It is verse 4 below. It seems to minimally indicate a different comprehension of the last day by believers vs. non-believers:

    1 Thessalonians 5 (King James Version)
    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    I am interested in comments on this passage.

  35. Jeff & Cindy says:

    John,

    Our take on this passage is that God is giving us the very important truth that as far as “Christ coming as a thief in the night”, it does not apply to true believers. As believers, we should be ready for His return.

    God repeatedly tells us, “Watch, watch, you don’t know the time.” Therefore, the only way we as believers can truly be ready is to make sure we’re born again. If we’re truly saved, then this day will not sneak up on us as a thief sneaking into our house because we’re fully prepared – our Redeemer has paid for our sins.

    But Christ will be coming as a thief in the night for the unsaved. They’re not ready for His coming in any way. They’re laden with their sins; they’re not born again. It will be a terrible day and there is no escape (v3).

    There are probably lots of people who are hoping that when Christ comes, then they’ll decide on their course of action. They’ll want to argue with God that their good deeds are greater than their bad deeds and therefore God ought to have mercy on them.

    This passage doesn’t support the idea that certain believers such as Mr. Camping can know the date of His return.

    Thanks for taking the time to comment. Jeff & Cindy

  36. mike says:

    Im a bit confused….I read the article quoting him….the one in your link…
    and it reads like he is supporting eternal damnation and refuting anihlationism.????

  37. John L says:

    Thanks Jeff&Cindy for your Feb 22 explanation. I thought of your explanation for 1Thes 5:4 after writing on Jan 25, but I still wanted to see somebody else confirm it in a thoughtful manner.

    I can also confirm to “mike” that Camping has been teaching annihilationism over the last few months, as I have been listening a lot. I saw an internet posting that said he first changed on Nov 4, 2007 to “annihilation” from “eternal damnation in hell”, and I can tell you that’s about right from my radio listening. The first time I heard that was also the first time he named specific dates in 2011 (rapture on May 21, and end of world on Oct 21). He had been discussing 2011 as the likely year before that, but it was striking to hear exact dates, and how completely confident he seemed once he drew the conclusion of the exact dates.

    I am in the process of reading through “Time Has an End”, and I am not disappointed at Harold Camping’s methodical and thorough presentation of the timeline of history. I have not yet grasped completely where he is drawing his “final” date conclusions from, but I am sure it will be very thorough when I reach those pages. I have also been convinced of his sincerity over 12 years or so of listening to him, listening to other teachers, and reading on my own. I keep in mind that he has a human mind trying to make conclusions based upon communication from an infinite mind, so there can be something he has missed (like the “latter rain” in his “1994?” book). However, as somebody who is in a very analytical profession where scrutiny of data is high, I have spotted a lot of logical faults in high profile people’s opinions and presentations, and Harold is pretty seamless in his methods. Anybody who disregards his conclusions out of hand may be doing so at their own peril. He is minimally a good steward for pointing people to the Bible for answers.

  38. Jeff & Cindy says:

    Mike,

    Yes, you’re right. This is all very confusing. As John already highlighted, for many years Harold Camping was a very strong and faithful proponent of the biblical doctrine of eternal damnation for unbelievers. And the transcript was provided as evidence for any followers who were unaware of this man’s history.

    But then last November, he suddenly recanted all of this in favor of annihilation.

    Our intent was to show the lack of fidelity in this individual’s teaching. Based upon the changes in his teachings over the last few years, how can anyone really be sure what he will teach tomorrow? It reminds us of sand dunes — they look different today than yesterday…and they could be different tomorrow than today. No one really knows.

    Thanks for your comment.

  39. senecus says:

    Jeff & Cindy,

    It’s also known as “Baskin Robbins Theology”-you know ,flavor of the week? :)
    Seriously.Harold Camping began straying off the reservation more than a decade ago and yes, before that time he fell within the pale of orthodoxy,in reformed school of thought. Will give credit where its due. But his total embrace of annihilation after years of being a fervent proponent,a “repository”-if you will, of the doctrine of eternal damnation is a tough one to fathom.(and ,as you’ve shown in another post, there’s years worth of transcripts and recordings to show this-for all willing to “be a Berean” to investigate).

  40. David says:

    Hey Jeff, isn’t Jim B’s post an attack on an individual (Harold Camping)? Looks like the same broken record from Topic #61. Seems like the same hateful rhetoric against Mr. Camping.

  41. AL T says:

    Brother Jeff , I agreed with the 5 points that you put up on the posting # 61 .But to do away with the beautiful dialogue and the many verses and ideas and insight from many . now we lost that all , brother Baby in Christ we lost .
    I think you agree with all what Mr Camping teaching except the depart out and annihilation . Can you elaborate .

  42. Jeff & Cindy says:

    Al T,

    Thanks for commenting again. Believe me Al, we carefully weighed the pros & cons of keeping that posting/discussion up vs. deleting it. I’ve used several adjectives describing the tone of those discussions, but I have to be honest with you and admit that “beautiful” was not one of them. In fact, our view is that the tone was just the opposite.

    Babe in Christ, as well as everyone else, is encouraged to weigh in with their thoughts/comments about any particular subject. I suspect many may now choose not to do so since they will not be permitted to pontificate (positively or negatively) about Harold Camping. As we said earlier, if that’s their goal — defending or attacking Harold Camping — then there are myriad other outlets on the internet for them to do precisely that. We no longer wish to have our blogsite named among them.

    Thanks again, and we hope you’ll continue to be a visitor to this site.

  43. JimB says:

    Jeff and everyone,
    I apologize for what happened on the #61 postings, it became a personal debate between “Babe in Christ” and me, and asked God for forgiveness for this. I ask you and everyone to forgive me. I also ask “Babe in Christ” to forgive me.
    Please leave this message up, so people will see that I am sorry for what happened.
    God Bless,
    JimB

  44. Kathy says:

    I wonder about what he teaches regarding art (that is drawing painting etc) and the bible. Since the bible doesn’t say much about it does that mean that it’s wrong? I have heard Harold Camping tell listeners that art is not of God and not to go into the field of art. He quotes the scripture about not making a likeness of anything in heaven or on earth, yet on the family radio website they have graphic images and photos. I would like to see his house. If he really practices what he preaches then I guess he his walls are completely bare. Would love to engage him in a conversation about this…How would I get a chance to talk to him? Is Open Forum still on the radio? Kathy

  45. Kathy says:

    Oops, I just realized that this forum is about Eternal Damnation. I guess I just changed the subject. Sorry about that. Kathy

  46. joseph says:

    ….for the redemption of the soul is costly….
    Christs blood… “imperishable.”
    How great a price did our Saviour willingly pay and how great a Gift of our Father to gave for the redemption of our souls. Does God the Father love us more than His own Son? Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us…1John3:1
    I think anihilation makes light of the terrific payment Christ gave.

    I see verses in the Bible upon which a case for anihilation could be made but it cant hold up because Jesus, God-Man, plainly talked and warned of eternal suffering and torment repeatedly.
    Here are some verses that help me hold my position of eternal suffering:
    There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1
    …but the wrath of God abideth on him.John 6:36
    ….we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God 2Cor5:20
    …save others, snatching them out of the fire…..Jude1:23

  47. Bob says:

    What about babies? Do you mean to tell me that a baby that is not elect that dies after 6 months of life will go to hel forever and ever to pay for sins? Do you believe that for YOUR children? Does that sound like a MERCIFUL God? Be very careful what you say about the character of God. All those doctrines about infant baptism, age of accountability, church membership CANNOT save a baby that is NOT ELECT

    Jude 1:7 gives us the truth on the matter:

    Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

    Are Sodom and Gomorrah still in existance? NO!!!!! They were completely destroyed.

    The eternal fire (God is a consuming fire) destroyed them. God said these citites were an EXAMPLE.

    The church has been wrong about so many things (i.e. Christ did everything He could to save you, but now YOU must accept Him). They don’t even have salvation right.

    I am a very sick man. I was poisoned 6 years ago by 2 doctors that did not know their trade. I was given Cipro (a powerful chemotheraputic agent called an “antibiotic”) with Vioxx (a drug that was pulled because it killed more people than died in Viet Nam)

    The church across the street I attended for YEARS and tithed on my GROSS INCOME (which was near 6 figures) ignored me as I lay in agony. No phone calls. 1 or 2 visits for a couple of minutes. In fact there were several pastors through here that saw how sick I was/am and never made any effort to encourage, comfort. “Bear ye one another’s burdons”…

    I’ve seen the church of today, and I fear greatly for it. Jesus said MANY will say to me on that day…… I’m sure most of the MANY will come from churches…

    How can someone claim to be saved – to have eternal God living within them -the compassionate spirit of Christ, and ignore a man who suffers every day of his life and will never get better?

    I have permanent brain damage from the medications. I cry everyday. I would LOVE a phone call from a believer, a true believer just to talk to … but I can’t get it.

    See my video on youtube, search “bobgroz” without the quotes and watch the video about prescription drug reaction, cipro and vioxx.

    See my website, http://www.fqvictims.org – all the suffering because of these medications.

    I’m sorry, but I believe for the most part the external church is dead. Judgment has begun on the household of God. I’m not saying this just because I was ignored.

    Doctrines are all messed up, how many people really care and spend ANY time as ambassadors for Christ in the churches? Why is the DIVORCE rate as high in the church as in the world.

    I think we ALL should be thinking really hard about these things and see what the Bible has to say about them. The church (external) is going the way of Israel. It’s based on the traditions of men, and there is very little love coming forth from them.

    And those of you who claim hell is torture forever should be ashamed if you are not out warning people every spare second you have, because that is absolutely awful.

    It makes more sense to me that a non-elect baby just dies and that’s the end of it. God is MERCIFUL. The wages of sin is DEATH. The soul that sinneth shall DIE.

    Where does it say the wages of sin is SPIRITUAL DEATH? That’s not in my King James Bible. Don’t add to the God’s words, because Revelation warns us God will add to those that do so the plauges contained in the Bible.

    Well, that’s all I’m well enough to type. God bless everyone here, I hope all of you have a living, saving relationship with the King of Kings, the Lord Jesus….

  48. Will says:

    Hi Bob,
    I am a healthcare professional and would be more than happy to call you and talk to you. I am a believer as well and will leave my email address for you here so that you can send your phone # to me if you wish. Bob, may God bless you.

    bradwallick@aol.com

  49. Steve says:

    Hi Bob,

    Very well said – may the Lord keep you and yours safe…until that day…hang in there.

  50. Bob

    You sounds like someone i am listening to over shortwave radio in South Africa every night….!

    O what a glorious day…

    (Isa 52:7) How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

  51. Eric says:

    Judgement In harmony…..Behold

    (Isa 13:13) ThereforeH5921 H3651 I will shakeH7264 the heavens,H8064 and the earthH776 shall removeH7493 out of her place,H4480 H4725 in the wrathH5678 of the LORDH3068 of hosts,H6635 and in the dayH3117 of his fierceH2740 anger.H639

    (Rev 16:18) AndG2532 there wereG1096 voices,G5456 andG2532 thunders,G1027 andG2532 lightnings;G796 andG2532 there wasG1096 a greatG3173 earthquake,G4578 such asG3634 wasG1096 notG3756 sinceG575 G3739 menG444 wereG1096 uponG1909 theG3588 earth,G1093 so mightyG5082 an earthquake,G4578 and soG3779 great.G3173

    (Jer 25:33) And the slainH2491 of the LORDH3068 shall beH1961 at thatH1931 dayH3117 from one endH4480 H7097 of the earthH776 even untoH5704 the other endH7097 of the earth:H776 they shall notH3808 be lamented,H5594 neitherH3808 gathered,H622 norH3808 buried;H6912 they shall beH1961 dungH1828 uponH5921 H6440 the ground.H127

  52. Sean says:

    Here are some interesting verse connections that indicate that hell is torment which is actually defined as experiencing fear and anger in the absence of love:

    (1 John 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    (1 John 2:4-6) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    (1 John 1:6, 7) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    (Hebrews 10:24-27) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    (Psalms 9:3) When mine enemies are turned back, they shall fall and perish at thy presence.

    (Hebrews 12:29) For our God [is] a consuming fire.

    (Luke 21:25, 26) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    (1 John 3:18, 19) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

    (Colossians 3:12-14) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye. And above all these things [put on] charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

    (1 John 4:18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

    (Revelation 14:11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    (Matthew 11:28, 29) Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

    (Luke 13:24-28) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.

    (Job 16:9) He teareth me in his wrath, who hateth me: he gnasheth upon me with his teeth; mine enemy sharpeneth his eyes upon me.

    (Psalm 37:12) The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.

    (Lamentations 2:16) All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it.

    (Mark 9:18) And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

    (Acts 7:54) When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

    (Psalm 35:16) With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.

  53. Sean says:

    The above also shows that God is a consuming fire and we see the finality of everything (including hell apparently) in these verses:

    (2 Peter 3:10-13) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    (Revelation 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    (Matthew 24:35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    (John 6:63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

    (John 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

  54. Al says:

    Harold is a false teacher. People who follow him are not very intelligent. Harold teaches Annihilation. That is not a biblical teaching. Geisler’s Systematic Theology, vol. 4 totally refutes annihilationism.

  55. Al says:

    And the fact he was wrong on his 1994 prediction, totally discredits him and shows his hermeneutic is wrong. He should have stepped-down in humility. But in his arrogance and audacity, went out and set another date. This man is either insane, or deluded.

  56. I live in South Africa and we listen to Family Radio via AM and Short Wave radio broadcasts.

    (Rev 14:7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    May the Lord have mercy on each one of us.

    2011-greetings

    johannes coetzee

    Family Radio listener (South Africa)

  57. Ashebir says:

    Johannes,

    I am also a dedicated family radio listner in east Africa, Ethiopia. I believe we are approaching the END.

    2011 greetings to you, too.

  58. imee says:

    May God be merciful unto us sinners.

  59. David Warren says:

    I offer apologies for such a lengthy post only commenting because I have noticed postings related to Harold Camping and Family Radio. At 11:00 p.m. central time on 10/11/2008 I, by chance, stumbled onto a call in program on 6915 kHz shortwave. Harold Camping was the host and was taking questions by phone and giving his interpretation of how scripture applied.
    I fully agreed with his answer to one question in which the caller was asking if he would be assured of his salvation if he got baptized. Camping answered that salvation is only of the Lord, that baptism has been elevated by many churches to a level that was never intended, and that looking upon getting baptized as redemptive is a works perspective approach. Where lost my respect for is teachings is when he stated to another caller that (1) only three percent of the world population from Christ’s first advent until His second will enter the kingdom of heaven (2) there is only a little over two years remaining for anyone who is going to be saved to do so and (3) those left behind will simply cease to exist.
    A Baptist preacher, William Miller, in the nineteenth century predicted the second advent of Christ as October 22, 1844. His following is known even today as the Millerite Movement. Of course we have figured out by now that he was teaching falsely. The Seventh Day Advent Church grew out of the disappointment of some of his followers. The Dravidian Seventh Day Advent Church grew out of a group that was disfellowshipped form the Seventh Day Advent Church. A 1955 schism in the Dravidian Seventh Day Advent Church led to the Branch Dravidian movement in which a young man named Vernon Wayne Howell became the head figure and changed his name to David Koresh. Any informed adult in our country would know the remainder of the story. What an unfortunate legacy for pastor Miller, but such things can grow out of the misled teachings of those who presume to know what Jesus told us that only His Father knows (refer to Matthew 24 and Mark 13). A hundred years from now what will be the legacy of current day teachers who purport to be as well informed as our Father in heaven?

  60. Simple Truth says:

    I am a Family Radio Listener, I would like to mention that Mr. Camping is NOT the only Bible Teacher that sees the truths in the Bible. I can. Mr. Camping is in a position where he can share these truths with the world. Don’t underestimate the power of God.

    Remember!
    Mark 1:22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

    Everyone is astonished…because it contradicts what your church teaches, what your pastor teaches…

    God sents a strong delusion..

    2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    God will destroy the body and soul at the end of the world!

    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Trust the Bible!

    a great study on Hell by John McOwen 12/22/08
    http://www.familyradio.com/english/connect/audio_archive/echoes/frame/wm/

  61. Simple Truth says:

    Much Bibical evidence is being unsealed from the Bible regarding the church taught and widely known defination of Hell, Hell is not a “literal” place as taught; Hell is the grave, the second death, outer darkness, etc. The unsaved will be never again forevermore.

    De 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell , and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

    Hell

    AV-grave 31, hell 31, pit 3; 65

    1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
    1a) the underworld
    1b) Sheol-the OT designation for the abode of the dead
    1b1) place of no return
    1b2) without praise of God
    1b3) wicked sent there for punishment
    1b4) righteous not abandoned to it
    1b5) of the place of exile (fig)
    1b6) of extreme degradation in sin

    Consume

    AV-eat 604, devour 111, consume 32, misc 55; 810

    1) to eat, devour, burn up, feed
    1a) (Qal)
    1a1) to eat (human subject)
    1a2) to eat, devour (of beasts and birds)
    1a3) to devour, consume (of fire)
    1a4) to devour, slay (of sword)
    1a5) to devour, consume, destroy (inanimate subjects i.e., pestilence, drought)
    1a6) to devour (of oppression)
    1b) (Niphal)
    1b1) to be eaten (by men)
    1b2) to be devoured, consumed (of fire)
    1b3) to be wasted, destroyed (of flesh)
    1c) (Pual)
    1c1) to cause to eat, feed with
    1c2) to cause to devour
    1d) (Hiphil)
    1d1) to feed
    1d2) to cause to eat
    1e) (Piel)
    1e1) consume

    ****

    God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked!

    Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    ****

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    ****

    Once an unsaved person dies, that is it! God is not going to bring a person back to life (we just seen that the wages of sin is death) to be under tortment forever. If God does that, that means that he would have to bring every unsaved person who ever lived back to life; Now what about the people in Noah’s day? They perished from the Flood, they already paid for their sins. How many times does a person have to pay for their sins? Just once.

    Christ paid once for the sins of His elect.

    God would not only have to bring the dead back to life, but keep them alive eternally to suffer forever. But the wages of sin is DEATH!

    ****
    Hell will be on this earth for five months (153 Days) when Christ returns!

    Re 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

    Re 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

    ****

    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    ****

    If you are not saved, one of God’s elect (no one knows who God’s elect are) you are dead spiritually already.

    ****

    Remember the days of Noah:

    It rained 40 days and 40 nights (Gen 7:17) and the water was upon the earth for 150 days (Gen 7:24)

    Note: Hell is the grave, you will never ever exist again, death! unless ofcourse you are a child of God.

  62. Celso DaSilva says:

    The fact is that Mr. Camping fails to mention any of the prophecies of the last days before Christ`s return. The National Sunday Law, persecution of Christians(those who won`t accept the mark of the beast)etc; I think Mr. Camping lacks a deep study of the spirit of prophecy, therefore he put himself in the same category as Hal Lindsey and others etc;. The prophecies MUST be fullfilled before Christ returns. Mr. Camping estimated time is just mathematical and that has no place in the course of events God has planned. I don`t want to write a manuscript here. We must Love our God, obey ALL (all 10)his commandments and love one another. When he returns, and he will when it is the time determined by him, we will be ready to embrace him with open open arms.

  63. Sean says:

    Celso, you say the fact is, but your fact doesn’t agree with my facts that are based on the Bible:

    FACT: A falling away from truth has already happened, which has caused God to bring judgment upon what is now called Babylon the Great (all churches worldwide).

    FACT: When the Great Tribulation began, Christ removed the candlestick, meaning the Holy Spirit was taken out of the midst and is no longer saving souls and raining doctrine in any churches worldwide during this time.

    FACT: Satan, who is called the “man of sin” because he is typified by the king of ancient Babylon who was a man, has been given authority by God, to sit (rule) in the temple (the corporate body…all churches) which is now called Babylon the Great and is under judgment.

    FACT: The Bible says to come out of Babylon the Great (all churches) in Revelation 18:4. If you remain in the desolation until the door of salvation is shut, you will be tormented on Judgment Day (5 months…see Revelation 9:5), along with many millions of church going Christians who will find themselves not raptured and left behind. Sadly, they will then know the truth and will realize that they were deceived by satan and unknowingly received his mark in their blinded minds.

    FACT: Church goers will claim on that day, that Christ taught in their “streets” which is a word that relates to Babylon the Great (compare with “street” in Revelation 11:8) but they will be rejected by Christ because they never knew Him by following Him in Spirit and in truth, but rather loved and made a lie by remaining in their desolate churches that are now habitations of devils. The Bible even says that God Himself is bringing a strong delusion upon those who remain in Babylon the Great (all churches) so that they will believe a lie. This is the sad situation.

    Now, is the time for self examination before you find yourself saying “Lord, Lord” on that day soon coming. Today is still the day of salvation, but the time is running out! May 21, 2011 is coming…are we ready??

  64. Reb14 says:

    I am greatly troubled by Harold Camping I have a family member who is a follower of him. I noticed that all his listners parrot him. everyhting you see is right out of his books. Also look carefully did God ever tell Noah to warn the world?? No God never intend to save anyone else but Noah and his family. wouldn’t that be cruel to warn people but than never save them?? we assume that Noah preached the end of the world by the verse He preached rightnesou. Does the Bible say when he did that?? No how can warning people be the same as rightness?? noah could’ve been doing this before he knew about the flood. Hey it is just an observation. My family member who follows family radio short circited when I tried to tell him this….he just couldn’t beleive that God wouldn’t have a prophet to warn people. I said did God ever command him to tell the people?? Also Noah and Jonah never had years of God warning them of the end it was just days and yeah it came to pass for Noah and jonah the people repented obviously God knew they would repent so that it is why God commanded Jonah to tell them of what would do….catch this….If they would repent…. God is good…don’t follow men they are full of sin and are finite beings who could in no way have these so called revealtions from God…oh yeah and isn’t it curiuous how Harold gets these things from his own personal bible study and than he shares hem will all of you who are tuned in and than all of the sudden you see it too???

    I will pray for all of you….the path false teachers go is hell

  65. Reb14 says:

    also if it is true that all the unsaved cease to exisit after they die doesn’t that just confirm to the unsaved what they beleive?? after they die there is nothing. The unsaved could careless about hell on earth for five months. plus there is people out there who beleive hell is on earth already. what about people who are abused, sickly, women raped, living with horriable poverty persections tortues??? isn’t hell for them??? Plus if we know an end to our sufferings wouldn’t it be easier to bear?? again you must ask yourselfs these important questions. get away from family radio search the bible without harold’s interpretation of it. lets be honest guys it is his interpretation of it when he says”I” search the Bible “I” belevie God has revealed these things just to me and I share them with you

  66. Scott says:

    There is no such thing as eternal damnation or annihalation of sinners. God said let us make man in our image. This is exactly what He is doing.

    Adam and Eve were never created in a perfect state. They were created fallen. It was God who created them in a fallen state. It was God who placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden in their midst. It was God who placed Satan in the form of a serpent in the garden to tempt Eve. The only way a person can be tempted to do anything is if those desires are already in their heart. I am a straight man and could never be tempted to sleep with a gay man because those desires are not in my heart!

    The Old Testatment was written in Hebrew and the New Testament was written in Greek. Hell and eternal are mis-translations of the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Hades and Sheol are the original words used and each mean the grave or the unseen. Gehenna is the other word used in the original scriptures and was a geographical location. Originally it was the city dump outside of Jerusalem, now it is referred to as the Valley of Hinnon. The fires of Gehenna depict the purifying fires of the lake of fire. The original word used for eternal was aion and means an age. An age has a set beginning and a set ending point. Everything in God’s divine plan has an age.

    God created evil, He created everything! He made Satan a liar and a murderer from the beginning just as Jesus referred to him as being such. God did all of these things for the sole purpose of making all of mankind into His image and likeness. Remember, God is not a man, He is spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and truth. Adam and Eve we never made into the image and likeness of God. The process for all of mankind began with the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This had to happen! It was no accident and never took God by surprise! This is why God forordained for Jesus to be the slain lamb of God before the foundation of the world! Mankind were always meant to eat of that tree because before they did, they had no knowledge of either good or evil. To be made into the image and likeness of God, we must first experience evil so that we may know good.

    Jesus Christ was the first finished man. The first Adam was sown a physical body but the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. This was Jesus Christ. This is why He is called the first fruit. The truth is that God is not trying to make everyone into His image and likeness right now. He began with His son Jesus Christ. He is now working with those who will be Christs at His son’s second coming. We of ourselves can do nothing to obtain salvation. It is a process and it takes God drawing/dragging to His son just as Jesus said. This will only happen when God is ready for it to happen. Once we are drawn to Jesus Christ by God, then our purificaiton process begins. Christ’s blood only covered our sins, it has not removed our sins. Only God’s Holy fire can accomplish this. The fire is not physical, it is spiritual. God is a consuming fire and His fire is not to torture us, but to purge us of all our ungodliness and wickedness.

    For those of you who don’t believe me, read I Corinthians, chapter 3 verse 11-15. No where in the original scriptures, not the mis-translated english versions, does it say God is going to burn the majority of mankind in a fiery hell-hold for all of so called eternity. Tell me, how can average Christians be offended by child molestors, murderers, theives, homosexuals, and adulterers, but gladly worship a God who they believe will literally set even one member of His creation on fire to burn their flesh off their bones and melt their eyeballs in their eye sockets for all of eternity? If one member of our society burned another alive, christians everywhere would be grabbing their stones but it is okay when it is their God planning on doing this. The God you all worship is not the real God, but a false image of God that Satan has planted in everyone of your minds. The true God is love.

    I know that most will argue that God gives us a choice of whether we will allow Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. Well, this completely contradicts the scripture that states no one can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws/drags them. My friends, scripture does not contradict. It is the carnal mind that contradicts. We do not have a free will to make any decisions. God is the only one with free will and to say otherwise is to say He is not fully soveriegn over His creation. Tell me, did you create yourself? Did you decide where in the world you would be born? Did you decide into what geneaology you would be born into? Did you decide if you be born into a family that believes in Jesus? Did you decide if you would be born rich, poor, healthy, sick, deformed, black, white, male, female, or if you would even be born at all or aborted? No you didn’t, none of you did. God forordained all of this for you! No one has any control over any thing. Oh sure, you may think you do because you make choices everday all day long, but do you control the circumstances that bring about those choices? Do you not beleive that God is capable of playing with our feelings and our hearts in such away that will cause us to make certain decisions? I do, because that is exactly what happens. None of us control if we will even make it home tonight from work alive or not. Face it, we live in the moment. We can plan and plan all we want, but only God has control of how our lives will play out.

    God has subjected each and everyone of us to vanity, not willingly, by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope. God is the potter and we are the clay. He forms some into vessels of honor and some into vessels of dishonor, but He does it all from the same lump! God makes us how we are to carry out His divine plan that He laid out before the foundation of the world. Trust me, God is not surprised by any evil or sin that has ever happened, is happening, or that will ever happen. He already forordained it all to happen just as it is. To say other wise is to say God is not in control and He is helpless and weak fully dependant on man to decide for himself if he will allow God to save him or not. That is ridiculous and unscriptural.

    God’s will is to have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Are you people saying God will not accomplish His will? Are you disputing this scritpure? How about the scripture that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord and Savior to the glory of God? Do you all also disagree with this scripture? Are you not aware that the only way a person can confess that Jesus is Lord and Savior is by the power of the Holy Spirit living inside of them?

    The truth is that God will make every one who has ever lived and died or who will ever live and die into His image and likeness just as He stated in Genesis. The only difference is when He will do that with each of us. Some will be made into His image and likeness before others, but eventually God will be all in all just as the scriptures state.

    This is truth.

  67. Vinnie Tony says:

    He sounds like some NUT to me
    A very old man who has a huge imagination.
    Why would God destroy the world with
    earthquakes.
    He aint even around anymore
    If he was why would he allow all
    these disasters?

    VinnieTony

  68. Jeff & Cindy says:

    Vinnie Tony,

    You should be careful with your words. Matthew 12:36 reminds us that “every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.”

    All of us need to remember that this earth was created perfect. There was no sin; there was no curse of sin. Mankind was created with every blessing and to have fellowship with God and to enjoy Him forever.

    But then man, of his own volition, rebelled against God and effectively said, “I don’t want to obey You.” It began with Eve in the Garden of Eden, then expanded to Adam and this has been the condition of mankind ever since.

    When man rebelled against God, we became estranged from Him. This resulted in God cursing the earth so that this earth is now a place of tears, toil, suffering, sorrow, and yes disasters. But this isn’t God’s fault – it’s man’s own doing because we didn’t live by God’s rules.

    You may not believe in God, but He’s got something to say to you. I pray you have the ears to hear…

    Romans 9:20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    Isaiah 55:8-9: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    To God Be The Glory

  69. Rev. Dr. Berrian, Th.D. & Ph.D. says:

    Matthew 25:41 is clear to any fourth grader.
    ‘…everlasting fire’ plus Matthew 5:22,29,30. Mr. Camping was trained as an engineer and is totally unfit to play in theological matters. Perhaps he could be trusted to simply read Scripture everyday without interpretation.

    Beside this his views on Unconditional Election, Limited/Special Atonement, Irresistable Grace are thoroughly unBiblical. He follows Luther’s ideas of “Bondage of the Will,” which means he never got too far from Roman Catholicism’s theology during Reformation times. Camping, Rev. Dr. Sproul, and the late Rev. Dr. Knight Rudolph of Reformed Episcopal Seminary and others are sleeping on the doorstep of the Vatican, theologically speaking.

    Jesus tells us to partake of the sacrament of Holy Communion ‘…until HE comes.’[I Corinthians 11:26]. This means that the churches will still be preaching the Gospel at the time of the Rapture [I Thessalonians 4:13-18]. Camping is blaspheming the Holy Spirit when he alone declares that the age of the church is completed. Those who listen to him should know that he is going into his later years of dotage. The man cannot put two words together and when someone gives him another view he simply says, ‘Thank you for calling; is there another caller?’

    Mr. Camping has left orthodoxy on many serious points, so I have no other choice but to say that he, himself might not even be genuinely saved; and I do not say this lightly or without thought.

    He does not even allow the seeker of God to have faith in Jesus Christ; they are apparently saved by some kind of spiritual osmosis.

    The Rev. Dr. I. Ray Berrian, Th.D. & Ph.D.

  70. Roy Crews says:

    I have listened and heard many cons about Mr. Camping. None of them address his teachings using the bible. No one can truthfully say that Mr. Camping is not teaching the bible. I have been a listener of family radio and Mr. Camping since the 1970′s. I have heard many people give their opinons none of them can use the bible. The bible is the only authority. Mr. Camping knows more about the bible than anyone on this earth. However, he is just a man and always says don’t trust me trust the bible. There is no way a true child of God will find fault with the bible. Many people think they know the Lord when in fact they do not. All of us should examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith or not! Please read your bible and understand that by Love shall all men know that you are My disciple. The christian message is a positive message nothing in the bible is negative. Please read all Mr. Campings teachings they are in the bible. All anyone understands about God is thru revelations. The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God because they are learned by the Spirit. Read all the bible develop your own personal walk with the Lord. Leave Mr. Camping alone, if you don’t believe his teachings don’t listen or read his work. To his own Master a servant stands or falls.

  71. Definitive Biblical proof that Harold Camping is preaching “another gospel” that is not the gospel of Christ:

    (1 Corinthians 15:12-16) Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? “But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

    In the above passage, we see an inseparable connection between the physical resurrection of Christ on the third day after His death on the Cross that was preached back then, and the resurrection at the last day. So, if Christ is not raised from the dead completely, neither are the believers. Harold Camping teaches that Christ is not fully risen from the dead and that the resurrection of Christ on the third day was a demonstration that has no connection to Christ’s payment for our sins. Mr. Camping teaches that Christ only died bodily at the time of the Cross, and therefore, the resurrection of Christ is not a full resurrection. This teaching is not only denying the resurrection of Christ in relation to the Cross, but is denying the resurrection at the last day as well, because according to the above passage, the two resurrections are inseparable. What Mr. Camping has done, is he has denied a foundational truth of Christianity and has gone outside of orthodox interpretation as taught by believers for about 2,000 years. This teaching goes against the gospel of Christ that the apostles preached. They preached Christ crucified at the time of the Cross and risen on the third day. They preached that payment for sins was made at the time of the Cross, not before the foundation of the world. Are we going to hear Harold Camping, who claims to have a new revelation from God, or are we going to hear the apostles in the Bible, who walked with Christ? Christ revealed the details of what would be the gospel of Christ, to the apostles. The gospel was not something they were in the dark about. The Bible is very clear about this:

    (1 Corinthians 15:3, 4) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died ***FOR OUR SINS*** according to the SCRIPTURES; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the THIRD DAY according to the SCRIPTURES:

    Notice the words “third day” and “scriptures” and compare with:

    (Luke 24:44-48) And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. THEN OPENED HE THEIR UNDERSTANDING, that they might understand the SCRIPTURES, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to SUFFER, and to rise from the dead the THIRD DAY: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are WITNESSES of these things.

    Notice the word “witnesses” in relation to “third day” that also ties in with “third day” in the first passage in relation to Christ dying “for our sins” according to the “scriptures.” We see the words “third day” in the below passage:

    (Acts 10:39-43) And we are WITNESSES of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the THIRD DAY, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto WITNESSES chosen before of God, [even] TO US, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    God’s word, the Bible, is telling us that the apostles were “witnesses” in relation to Christ dying “for our sins” and His subsequent resurrection on the “third day.” This is definitive Biblical proof that the atonement happened at the time of the Cross and not before the foundation of the world.

    We see the word “suffer” in Luke 24 up above, in relation to the “third day.” Christ suffered for sins how many times? The Bible tells us:

    (1 Peter 3:18) For Christ also hath ONCE SUFFERED FOR SINS, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the FLESH, but quickened by the Spirit:

    When did Christ become flesh? The Bible tells us:

    (John 1:14) And the Word was made FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Were there any people before the foundation of the world? Of course not.

    Mr. Camping makes us think that the apostles’ understanding was not opened regarding the gospel of Christ, in direct contradiction to Luke 24:44-48. There is only one truth, one gospel of Christ that is the power of God unto salvation. Mr. Camping is preaching “another gospel” that has no power at all, and is not the the gospel the apostles preached:

    (Galatians 1:6-9) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that which we have preached unto you, LET HIM BE ACCURSED. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that ye have received, LET HIM BE ACCURSED.

    Notice how God doubled up the warning in His word. What does Mr. Camping say about doubled up sayings of God in the Bible? He says it means that God really means it. Mr. Camping is preaching “another gospel” and according to the Bible, is subject to being “accursed.” Now is the time to stop listening to what Mr. Camping says the Bible says, and see what God’s word, the Bible, is truly saying to us. When we do that, a very different picture is seen in the scriptures.

  72. Chris says:

    Camping believes what he teaches, However-I don’t believe that if God is acting through him as a witness he would have gotten 1994 wrong. He uses many examples of the righteous being forwarned of judgement and telling those that will be spared to take refuge to justify the date setting. My question to him would be: who in the scriptures were wrong about their warning? Moses was not wrong about every plague. Noha was not wrong about his whole timeline ect. what does he make of being wrong that would justify more dates (5/21/2011-10/21/2011)?

  73. shontel332010@hotmail.com says:

    no man knows the day time year month are hour that the lord jesus christ would come

  74. Fran says:

    Today is October 20, 2012… two thousand and TWELVE!!!
    um just sayin…

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