| INTRODUCTIONFirst, let us identify what we mean by a cult: a counterfeit Christian organization that is not preaching the truth about how to get to heaven.
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:8 )
So then, in order to identify a cult, we need to show that they are preaching a false gospel, a false message of salvation. To identify a false gospel, we must first know what the true Gospel is. According to the Holy Bible, the true Gospel is the message that only the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ (plus NOTHING) can cleanse us of our sins and save us from eternal separation from God in Hell. Because the Bible says that “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Any religious institution that adds ANY other criteria for salvation to this message is preaching another gospel! Christ’s work is now complete. We sinners have nothing to offer God that will in any way contribute to our salvation. Many other Bible verses back up these statements such as Titus 3:5, Romans 5:8, and Isaiah 64:6.
THE KEY TO DETECTING COUNTERFEITS
God has given true believers His Spirit and His Word, the Holy Bible, to guide the true Church and protect the true Church from heresy and apostasy. If we, like the Bereans mentioned in Acts 17:11, study the scriptures CAREFULLY, we will find out how to distinguish between the genuine and the counterfeit. As with money, a good counterfeit is not easy to spot. You must be looking for it to find it. Likewise, a false church preaching a false gospel will not always appear false on the surface. We may have to ask probing questions and dig deep to find out how a false church’s doctrine conflicts with the true Gospel.
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” (1 John 4:1)
True Bible-based Christianity is truly unique and its message of salvation is of immeasurable value and like many genuine things of great value, there are many who wish to counterfeit it. At the same time, there are many who don’t like the plan of salvation that God provided so they have invented a kind of salvation more to their liking with lots of bells and whistles to disguise the fact that they are hopelessly lost sinners without Christ. Likewise, there are many who believe and preach that mankind can somehow save himself or at least contribute to his own salvation.
“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” (Colossians 2:8 )
True Christianity is not just another legitimate religion in the vast smorgasbord of world religions. It is positively ONE OF A KIND. It is the only religion where God truly revealed Himself (in person) to mankind and where God Himself became man’s Savior. This is dramatically different from all the man-made world religions which are just man’s attempt to define God and to specify man’s own idea of salvation. God already made the rules. He has already outlined the plan of salvation. He already earned salvation for those He intends to save since He knew we were incapable of meriting it.
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.” (2 John 9)
Any religious organization whose teachings are not in agreement with the true Gospel mentioned above, is a false religious system in the eyes of God and people who follow these false religions, trusting in them and their unbiblical teachings for salvation, are headed for hell.
HOW NARROW IS THE ROAD TO HEAVEN?
“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)
Fundamental biblical truths are those characteristics of Bible-based Christianity that make it unique from all other religious systems. They are the doctrines of the Christian faith that support Christ’s claims that there is only one narrow road to heaven, faith in the substitutionary death (and resurrection) of Christ alone as the sole means of a person’s salvation.
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:24)
Considering that the Bible says we must worship God in spirit and in truth, it is important for people to know what the truth is, especially with regards to God’s precious gift of eternal life and with regards to the simple plan of salvation described in the Bible. Unless a Christian really understands how God saved them, they will not know who to pray for (with regards to salvation) or who to share the gospel with. A Christian’s job is to share the true Gospel with those who are lost so that through the scriptures, God can reveal to the lost that they are truly lost.
MODERN DAY CULTS
“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Mark 7:7)
Some of the major so-called Christian groups that preach false gospels of Christ (our definition of a cult for this discussion) are listed here along with some of their writings that they elevate above the authority of the Bible:
- Mormons (Latter Day Saints) – the book of Mormon and other writings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young
- Jehovah’s Witnesses (Russellites) – Awake magazine, Reasoning From The Scriptures and other publications of The Watchtower Society
- Seventh-Day Adventists (Millerites) – The Great Controversy and other writings of Ellen G. White
- Christian Science – writings of Mary Baker Eddy
- Unification Church (Moonies) – the teachings of Sun Myung Moon
- International Church of Christ (the Boston movement) – the teachings of Chuck Lukas and Kip McKean and the original Churches of Christ
- Roman Catholic Church – various Catechisms and the decrees of popes and Vatican Councils
- the Catholic-like Orthodox churches (Eastern, Greek, Russian, etc.) – decrees of Ecumenical Councils, writings of various “Saints” and “Church Fathers”
All the above religious organizations teach that you must DO something to obtain salvation from sin, primarily: follow the example of Jesus Christ or the teachings of some prophet, prophetess or some church/cult founder. True Christianity has to do with trusting in NOTHING BUT the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross on behalf of those He came to save:
“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.” (Matthew 18:11) …”He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36) … “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1John 1:8 ) … “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” (Hebrews 9:12)
Salvation according to true Christianity and according to Jesus Christ is not a matter of human effort (i.e. following some doctrine or creed or tradition). In fact, Christ repeatedly made this point very clear:
“Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?” (Matthew 15:1-3)
In contrast, the Bible teaches that salvation is a gift that is not earned by man (because Christ earned it) and that a person receives salvation in this lifetime:
- “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Upon receiving the gift of salvation, a person becomes able to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ – able to follow those teachings the way that Christ intended as compared to how the unsaved follow Christ:
“For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” (Romans 10:3)
NON-BIBLICAL BELIEFS OF RELIGIOUS CULTS
“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” (Proverbs 14:12)
The beliefs listed below are not necessarily the beliefs of individuals but rather teachings of their organizations. All false Christian-like organizations subscribe to at least one of the beliefs listed. This list is by no means complete, but it covers many of the most common and significant conflicts with Scripture – things that cults and false churches do or preach because they do not understand or believe in the sufficiency of Christ’s finished work of salvation.
1. They deny the inerrancy of the Word of God (the Holy Bible) directly or indirectly by elevating someone or something such as traditions, customs, or private revelations of some individual, above God’s word. They may have some books or writings that they believe have equal or greater weight than the Bible. This belief is contrary to Psalm 138:2. See also Matthew 15:5-9 & Mark 7:13.
2. They preach that something in addition to the completed work of Christ is required for salvation, most often something unique to their organization. This may include having to be baptized, being a member of their organization, some kind of works or rituals or human effort of some kind. This belief is contrary to Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Colossians 2:10.
3. They have false prophets who have made false prophecies. This is a fulfillment of warnings in Matthew 24:23-24 and 1 John 4:1.
4. They deny the deity of Jesus Christ (that Jesus is eternal God). This belief is contrary to John 1:1, Colossians 2:9 and 1 Timothy 3:16.
5. They claim man can become a god or god-like. This is what satan said to Eve in the garden of Eden in Genesis 3:5.
6. They deny the existence of a literal hell – the place of eternal judgment in torment of those whose names are not written in the Book of Life (Rev 20:15). They might offer the ‘annihilation theory’ as an alternative, where it is claimed that you cease to exist when you die if you don’t qualify for heaven. This belief is contrary to Matthew 18:8-9 and Revelation 20:15 & 21:8.
7. They have a unique founder (who had his or her own unique revelations) or they have their own messiah – other than Jesus Christ. This belief is contrary to John 14:6 and Colossians 1:18.
8. They deny the existence of the Holy Trinity – God manifested in 3 persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This belief is contrary to Genesis 1:26, Isaiah 9:6, Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19, Luke 1:35 and 1 John 5:7.
9. They control what information members can access and they usually tell followers that anything that is not official church material is corrupt, of the devil, etc. They may also tell members not to visit other ‘unapproved’ churches. This attitude is contrary to 1 John 4:1 which says we should test the spirits to see if they are of God.
10. They claim that the nature of man is basically good rather than sinful. This belief is contrary to Isaiah 53:6 and Romans 3:10-12 and Romans 3:23.
11. They claim that only certain elite individuals in their organization are able to properly interpret the Bible for the rest of the followers. This is a fulfillment of 2 Peter 2:1-3 and contrary to 2 Peter 1:20.
12. They offer legalism, which is the earning of salvation based solely upon obedience to a set of rules which they determine. This is contrary to Matthew 15:17-20, Colossians 2:16 and Titus 3:5.
13. They have a false concept of heaven such as:
A. it is a place for an elite few, who their leadership usually specifies. This belief contradicts Deuteronomy 10:17.
B. it is a place where everyone will end up. This contradicts Matthew 7:14.
C. it does not exist. This is contrary to John 14:2-3, Matthew 6:10 and Revelation 4:1.
14. They say the head of the ‘Church’ on earth is someone other than Jesus Christ (i.e. THEIR leader). This is contrary to Ephesians 1:22 and 5:23.
15. They say that the true ‘Church’ is some physical, visible organization (i.e. THEIRS) rather than a world-wide group of spiritually-born believers in Christ who are united by the Holy Spirit. This belief is contrary to 1 Corinthians 12:13.
SUMMARY
It is important to remember that there may be some people who have become truly, scripturally saved (born-again) and yet are members of churches that subscribe to some of the unscriptural beliefs listed above. These individuals must sooner or later, by the prompting of the Holy Spirit, leave their corrupt churches and seek out born-again, Bible-believing churches if they wish to be obedient to God who says His worshippers “worship Him in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24).
If you have not yet realized your spiritual bankruptcy before an infinitely holy God, then ask God to open your eyes to the truth about your spiritual condition and about the one and only remedy, Jesus Christ, for your lost sin-sick soul. No amount of good deeds or self-righteousness can save you from the wrath of God. Only by Christ’s precious blood, can a person’s sins be completely blotted out so that they are made fit for heaven. Human effort of any kind saves no one. God must do ALL the work. It is He alone who takes hearts of stone and turns them into hearts of flesh, through the power of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Cry out to God to have mercy on your sin diseased soul that he might save you just as you are.
“And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:11-14)
How do you know if this material you are reading is true? Check the various Bible references and ask God, in prayer, to reveal the truth to you. He will – in His time, if you seek Him and search for Him with all your heart.
“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32 )
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April 6, 2008 at 7:36 am |
Harold Camping is a Cult leader also.
April 6, 2008 at 8:00 am |
In the above description, Jeff and Cindy, name false cults such as the Jehovah;s Witnesses, and other churches. We are to warn people and name cults to prevent people from following a cult. This is why we should not be afraid to name Harold Camping is a cult leader.
God names the names of false prophets in the Bible:
ACTS 13:
6 Now when they had gone through the island to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus, 7 who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man( like HAROLD CAMPING). This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10 and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?
God Bless,
Jim B
jimbbbbb@gmail.com
April 6, 2008 at 3:07 pm |
All the churches of today are cults; these man made organizations do not preach Christ, who is the Light that lights everyone that enters into the world. All the churches have set up their particular organization to exalt themselves, desiring the chief seats in the assemblies. These church organizations have built places of worship that God never commanded to be built. For the Lord said, heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool; where is the house that you will build unto me, and where is the place of my rest?
This is the true gospel that lighted every man that comes into the world, the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory. The gospel of God which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled of the Word of life.
First, salvation is of the Lord, it is the Lord that has subdued all our enemies, it is the Lord that wrought us victory, it is the Lord that has delivered and does still deliver us from so great a death.
Salvation doesn’t come with a mental accent, agreement or acceptance of belief. Salvation doesn’t come with an acknowledgement of an historical Jesus, nor does Salvation come by building a church organization, setting up weekly meeting, causing men to take on a form of godliness after the traditions of men, and having men follow the ordnances taught of men. All of these things are organized from the rudiments of the world; these ways are designed to make you subject to the commandments and doctrines of men, which is Will-Worship, that which you have contrived and not the Lord. Beware lest any man seduce you through false reasoning, which is difficult to expose its fallacy because it gratifies your passions for sin; beware of this vain deceit, which is after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Don’t let anyone condemn you for not going to his or her weekly church assemblies and cause you to feel guilty if you neglect to participate in their ceremonies of will-worship, which like all the ceremonies was a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ and not man, who would beguile you of your reward by intruding into those things that vainly puff up their fleshly mind, and not holding the Head, from which all the body increases with the increase of God.
The truth of God’s salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous.
Salvation come by waiting upon God: from him cometh salvation. Salvation comes to those that hope and long for God’s salvation.Salvation comes to those that stand still and see the Salvation of God.
The Lord has chosen Zion; God has desired it for his habitation. This is God’s rest forever; this is where God will dwell, not in churches organized by men, but in the church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. This is where salvation is found, in temples made without hands.
It is the Lord that gives salvation unto kings and clothes the priests with salvation.
Go to the well of salvation and draw water out that you will never thirst again. Come out of man’s organized worship service that forsake the place of living waters and hewed out broken cisterns that can hold no water.
God has given light to the world, so that those that come to the light will not abide in darkness. Come to this light that your sins may be reproved and that your deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought of God. This light will guide you from the deception of rulers of the organized apostate church. This light is an amour to cast off the works of darkness and will make known the hidden things of the heart, and then shall every man have praise of God.
Now if our gospel were hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them, which believe not. Lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, should shine unto them, for we preach not ourselves, but Christ, for God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ in which God put this treasure in our earthly bodies.
If this is true, then why are you still seated under the rule of Satan being unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what agreement has the temple of God with the church organization created to please man? Don’t you know you are the temple of the Living God; If this is true, then Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
April 6, 2008 at 6:26 pm |
Babe in Christ,
Once again you have parrotted back generalizations about all churches everywhere without exception. Who estalished the church to begin with? Was it man? Certainly not! It was God Himself, in the Person of Jesus Christ. The Scripture verses used by you and your fellow depart out adherents to prove the church era ended in 1988 or 1994 or whenever it supposedly was are built on shifting sand and are inconsistent with everything else Scripture teaches on the matter.
You wrote, “These church organizations have built places of worship that God never commanded to be built.” We repeatedly have said that there are many, many apostate churches out there. But there is still a sprinkling — a remnant if you will — of churches (many of them non-denominational) endeavoring to be as faithful to God’s Word as humanly possible. Are they 100% faithful in every area of faith and practice? Certainly not. If you’re looking for perfection, you certainly won’t find it in churches…or fellowships either! We all miss the mark as a result of our sinful nature. In accordance with God’s holy instructions, those attending churches are under the spiritual oversight of elders and deacons — human beings who are prone to wander form the Lord they love just like every redeemed individual this side of eternity.
We agree with your statements about salvation — in fact, many of our postings on this blogsite go into great detail elaborating on what salvation is (and what it isn’t).
Churches don’t save people; pastors don’t save people; creeds and confessions don’t save people. God saves people. On this point we’ve always been in agreement.
April 6, 2008 at 8:41 pm |
The only church that we must not neglect the assembly of is the church of the firstborn, which is written in heaven.
The only church that we must belong to is the one who Christ is the Head.
The only church that we must become part of is a spiritual house made up of lively stones.
Entered into a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, one that God built and not man.
Fellowship with the Father and with his Son Jesus and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.
Come to the church where Christ is the Good Shepherd that will never leave you or forsake you.
Belonging to any organized church built by man is built upon sand and is not the Rock that God said that he would build his Church upon and the gates of hell will not prevail.
April 6, 2008 at 11:35 pm |
The Word of God is enough for me. I simply pray that God sees what is in my heart and that it is true. Yes, organized churches are built by men, but we must not forget that the Holy Spirit is with us and if we are truly born again believers, the Holy Spirit will lead us where we should go. Even if you belong to a church that is apostate, is it not possible that God wants you there for a reason? There are still many souls that our Lord is waiting for, we are still living in a time when salvation is possible. All churches are not cults, there are many ministries that are preaching the truth.
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Luke 11:9
April 7, 2008 at 12:30 am |
The Father will give his people the Spirit of Truth, that he may abide in his people forever; The Holy Spirit is in and abides or dwells in his people forever, and the Holy Spirit will not lead his people into an apostate church but will call his people out of the apostate church, for the Holy Spirit has said, be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion has light with darkness? Or what part has he that believeth with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with exaltation of man? For you are the church of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. So the Spirit saith to his people, Come out from among them and be separate, saith the Lord, and I will receive you and will be a Father to you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
April 7, 2008 at 10:12 am |
So that I am not misunderstood:
Are we as believers not commanded to carry out the Great Commission?
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentence. Matt. 9:13
And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy, and there abide till ye go thence. Matt. 10:11
And He said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15
A good part of the world has gone apostate, so does that mean that we stop bringing the Gospel to the unsaved of the world? I don’t think so. In your everyday life, at work, at school, just living in a secular world, you are confronted with the unsaved, not
to have “fellowship” with them, but to bring them the Gospel.
April 8, 2008 at 8:26 am |
The woman at the well ask Christ where is the place that men ought to go for worship. Christ said, the hour comes, when you shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. But the hour comes and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.
There is no longer a place to go to worship God, meaning an organized entity sanction by man. Christ said the time is now; no longer would you need to go the temple where God require that you must come three times out of the year to worship in the temple with the church. That was a shadow of things to come and Christ came and there is no longer any need of any shadows, in fact in doing so you will have shown that you are still under the works of the law.
People that organize together and call themselves a church have done so on their own. God added to the church as many as should be saved as it is declared in the book of Acts. God didn’t add them to a structured form of worship service, as you would see in your church. Look at the church of Acts 2:43 and all that believed were together, and had all things common; and sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (If your going to follow the letter of the law, then your group needs to sell all their possessions and give to every man, that will never happen) verse 46 and they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple (what happen with your group they only meet once a week for few hours and maybe they have a mid-week bible study). The formal organize structure gatherings are a form of will-worship that has been handed down from the apostate church of the Roman Catholics. All of the groups today that keep this organized form of will-worship have splintered away from Rome in some fashion, there cry was that Rome was apostate, Rome was unfaithful, Rome is not where God dwells any longer.
All that they have done was to set up another organized structured place of will-worship and said to themselves this is the place of true worship, we are more faithful than they were, look at our church doctrine, look at our statement of belief, which in God sight this new group still was trusting in the flesh, still trusting in what they could see. All these organized groups that call themselves a church have never come to the truth that those that come to God will worship not in a place but in spirit.
The people that God saves have always been those of faith, by faith we believe that the church that God is adding to, is one that cannot be seen, all the people that God is adding to the church have all things common, all the people that God is adding to this church have sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need, all the people that God is adding to His church are continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, all the people that God is adding to this church are eating their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, all the people that God is adding to this church are praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord is still adding to the church daily such as should be saved.
April 8, 2008 at 4:38 pm |
babe in Christ,
So if I am understanding you correctly, you are talking about a spiritual “church”, not a physical “church”. But it sounds like the individuals that are part of this spiritual “church” are still gathering together and having fellowship with one another, correct? And if they have sold their possessions and goods, then reaped a financial benefit from selling those possessions and goods, then they are supporting each other from that financial gain. This sounds awfully like a physical church to me.
I understand what you are saying about organized religion and I agree with you. However, we part ways in that I believe that the congregations that are part of these organized religions need to hear the true Gospel of salvation and what it means to be truly saved. Many of these souls have not heard the truth, they have been told by their leaders that born again Christians are “fanatics”. They don’t read the Bible so they don’t understand. May God have mercy on them and on us that we don’t judge them.
April 8, 2008 at 9:50 pm |
So, how do you know that you have the true gospel?
April 9, 2008 at 1:04 am |
Will,
What do you base your conclusion on, that there are many ministries that are preaching the truth?
April 9, 2008 at 8:36 am |
Jeff,
By the way, anyone may answer the questions; I just use their name since it was their thought that initiated this question.
What is the criterion that you use to determine that the church that you go to is not apostate?
April 9, 2008 at 10:33 am |
Will,
Are you saying unless you belong to a man organized religion you can’t preach the gospel?
April 9, 2008 at 3:03 pm |
Gorilladad,
We have exchanged quite a few comments previously about this. All we can do is continue pointing you to http://jeffandcindy.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/the-gospel-what-it-is/
Jeff & Cindy
April 9, 2008 at 3:15 pm |
Babe in Christ,
You asked, “What is the criterion that you use to determine that the church that you go to is not apostate?”
Whenever a true believer enters a church, the Holy Spirit goes with them because when he/she becomes saved the Holy Spirit indwells them and never leaves them.
(Eph 4:30 KJV) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(Heb 13:5 KJV) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
For you to make the blanket statement that the Holy Spirit is out of ALL the churches is without biblical precedent and is another flagrant falsehood of the Depart Out teachings.
Each of the churches in Revelation had a different problem except Philadelphia. Did God say He was going to judge Thyatira for the sin of Sardis? No, He planned on dealing with each individual congregation according to their faithfulness or faithlessness.
Did God judge the Northern Kingdom and Judah together? No, He judged them individually as shown openly by the 135 year period between the captivity of Judah and Israel.
The “blanket” theory you espouse doesn’t exist in the Old Testament, let alone the New. It’s amazing to me that the DOPs (Depart Out people) continue to teach the blanket theory when the “type” or “shadow” they’re basing it all on doesn’t exist?
One might reason that they’re intentionally avoiding Scripture’s facts.
April 9, 2008 at 4:13 pm |
Jeff,
So is your answer to the question: if one believer is in your church then your church is not aposate?
April 9, 2008 at 6:07 pm |
If there is one believer in any Church in the world, then saying all churches are under the rule of Satan, is blaspheming the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit dwells in that one person. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is serious business, so you should beg God for mercy, and hope that you did not commit the unpardonable sin.
The pharisees and scribes accused Jesus or being under the power of Satan. When some say that all people who attend the Church of Jesus Christ are of Satan, is this not the same thing? Can you see how dangerous this is? This is not a doctrine game we are playing here, this is serious business, heaven and hell forever are at stake here. Playing games with the world of God is SERIOUS. This is not a political debate or something, we are dealing with eternal God and his Word. So constantly repeaing that all churches are of Satan is the worst possible sin you can commit. I go to a church and I am saved and have the Holy Spirit in me. If you say that I am of Satan, you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit within me. THIS IS NOT A GAME!!! THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL DEBATE OR SOMETING LIKE THAT. IF YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT ALL CHURCHES ARE OF SATAN, YOU ARE BLASPHEMING THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND YOU WILL SPEND ETERNITY IN HELL.
MARK 3:
28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of ****ETERNAL DAMNATION***** (NOT ANNIHILATION)
30Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
April 9, 2008 at 6:41 pm |
Jim,
The question was posed: What is the criterion that you use to determine that your church is not apostate? Am I to understand your answer to be; If one believer is found in your church that this proves that your or any other church is not apostate?
April 9, 2008 at 11:00 pm |
If you read what I said carefully, I never said “Unless you belong to a man organized religion you can’t preach the Gospel” or anything even close to that. The answer to the questions posed to me have been answered very eloquently by Jeff & Cindy above, and by JimB.
When Jesus Christ came the first time, who did he come for? Has His purpose for coming changed today? We are commanded by God to bring the Gospel to the unsaved. Where will we find the unsaved, in a congregation made up of believers? Take a look around you and wake up, there are still many in the world who need to hear the Word of God. It doesn’t matter which church or how many churches are apostate, what does matter is that they ALSO need to hear the Word of God.
“The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.” Matt 8:8
The centurion was saved.
April 10, 2008 at 1:05 am |
Will,
So, that mean that your answer to the question would be:
If one believer is found in your church that this proves that your or any other church is not apostate?
Is Yes or No your response?
Since you agree that you don’t have to belong to a man-organized religion to preach the gospel, then one can still be faithful in preaching the truth to the unsaved of the world without ever belong to such a group.
April 10, 2008 at 1:21 am |
Actually, I think the Lord commanded that the Gospel be preached to every nation (as in Matthew) and creature (as in Mark). He said nothing like go and preach to all the unsaved. There are plenty of people in the world who think they know they are saved that need to have the gospel preached to them.
April 10, 2008 at 8:16 am |
babe in Christ,
I don’t know how you are reading that in my response, but of course if one believer is found in an apostate church DOES NOT mean the church is NOT apostate.
Gorilladad, I believe you are actually saying the same thing that I said.
To babe in Christ and Gorilladad,
I think you are both quibbling over semantics here. I don’t want to state the wrong thing here and may God forgive me if I do, but I want to suggest that you both stop here and pray for faith, knowledge and anything else God may give you to help you to understand His infallible and trustworthy Word. Please believe me when I say that I am not worthy and I don’t have the answers you are looking for. I am not trying to be critical or judgemental.
April 10, 2008 at 9:47 am |
Will,
I asked the question to you: What do you base your conclusion on, that there are many ministries that are preaching the truth?
Your Answer was: “The answer to the questions posed to me have been answered very eloquently by Jeff & Cindy above and by JimB”.
So, since you have agreed with their response, and so that I can fully understand your position clearly, I have asked the question to Jeff, Jim and yourself, which was: If one believer is found in your church that this proves that your or any other church is not apostate?
I thank you for you answer! But I still have not received a Yes or No answer from Jeff or Jim to see if this is the criteria they use to determine that the church that they go to is not apostate or for that matter all churches.
However, can I now know that you believe that a church can be Apostate (have fallen away from the truth) and still have believers as members?
April 10, 2008 at 9:51 am |
Gorilladad,
Would you agree that even if those that think themselves to be save and are not, that they still are part of the unsaved of the world?
April 10, 2008 at 1:28 pm |
Brothers, in all the churches that I know teaches that man have to do something to assist GOD in his salvation Accepting,repentiong,rasing the hand,beliving, the and on and on. I know that is not of the LORD it is man made. they give this vers Mark 10-21 that this young ruler had a choice to sell all he had and follow CHRIST,”the implication is he had a choice and a part in his salvation if he wanted”.
Jeff and all dear brothers it seems that all the christian world is going in that direction and I am the only nut who dose not go along with them,maybe this is what the LORD meant by the narrow road.
Please give me a respond on that vers.
thanks
April 10, 2008 at 2:33 pm |
Babe in Christ,
If you’re looking for me to quote you a number of how many believers it takes to make a faithful church or how many deceivers it takes to make an apostate church, then don’t hold your breath. Here’s a question for you: how many errors can one hear on Family Radio before that ministry is declared apostate? How many errors is its leader permitted to have before he is considered to be a false teacher?
Under our About This Site banner we’ve said “If you feel the material presented here is faithful to the Scriptures…” Clearly, there is very little (if anything) on this blogsite that is in accordance with your views, opinions and understandings of Scripture.
I’ve re-read many (but not all) of your comments, and there’s very little in the way of encouragement being offered to anyone. If you regard me as a spiritually blind man leading the blind and nothing more than a heathen being blown to and fro by unsound doctrine and incorrect interpreations, then may I suggest that you follow the Scriptural mandate and shake the dust off your feet and depart from this unprofitable site.
Time is precious; redeem it wisely.
April 10, 2008 at 3:05 pm |
Al T,
You asked my thoughts about Mark 10:21 – Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
I think there’s a double implication here. Christ in effect is saying, “Make your possessions available to the spiritually poor.” I don’t believe the context supports the idea that He’s talking about the physically poor; He’s talking about the spiritually poor. These are the ones to whom the Gospel is proclaimed. As believers, we are stewards of God — ambassadors of God – charged with getting out the Gospel. And, much to some visitors chagrin, that’s why my wife and I maintain this blogsite.
I believe we need to understand when Christ replied to the rich young ruler, He was instructing the man to make himself a disciple of Christ through obedience — that is, by placing his trust in Christ.
I think there is a second implication in Mark10:21. Our riches aren’t going to get us into Heaven. Neither will our rich deeds or good works. That isn’t going to get us anywhere except hell. We must strip ourselves of all these things and come as a spiritually bankrupt sinner before God.
None of our good works are meaningful at all. Christ didn’t come to call the self-righteous; He came to call sinners to repentance. And when we’ve become spiritually stripped of anything that we think is good or worthy, then we’re going to be ready to follow Him. It’s at this point when we’re going to be ready to understand the salvation that Christ proclaims.
The Bible tells us the young man went away “exceedingly sorrowful, because he had great possessions.” On both counts he was still trusting in his good works. He liked his physical riches too much. He wasn’t ready to surrender his will to Christ as King and Lord of his life.
If we desire to he born again, we must be ready to obey Him. And that means counting the cost of discipleship. Our security is no longer in the pursuit of pleasure and all of these things that are so attractive to unsaved men. Our security is going to be in Christ.
Our view is that only those whom the Father is effectually drawing (i.e., Christ’s sheep; the elect) will truly want salvation on these terms – and they will respond in obedience through the power of the Holy Spirit. Jeff
April 10, 2008 at 4:28 pm |
Jeff,
The question is not how many believers it takes to make a faithful church or how many deceivers it takes to make an apostate church.
The question I asked you was what is the criteria you use to determine that the church that you go to is not apostate?
And the only answer that you gave was that “Whenever a true believer enters a church, the Holy Spirit goes with them because when he/she becomes saved the Holy Spirit indwells them and never leaves them.”
So in order for me not to misunderstand you I asked you: “If what you meant is that if one believer is in your church then is your church not apostate?”
This only required a Yes or No answer.
I am not asking how many it takes because you already answer that, I am now only asking if that is you criteria that you use to determine if your church is not apostate?
I haven’t regarded you as anything yet! However before I can determine if your views on the identifying religious cults are accurate and that every church is not apostate, then I need to know clearly your position? Or do we assume that you don’t have a position or don’t want to make it known?
If pursuit of truth is a waste of time then I am guilty, However, if discussions on matters from pure love of truth upsets you, then where is your gain?
The search for truth should be an ongoing continual endeavor: the path of the just is as a shining light, that shines more and more unto the perfect day.
If any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him, let him know, that he which converted the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sin.
What greater use of one’s time is there than this?
And what greater encouragement can you give than to uncover truth amidst the lies, and how can you not be snared by lies unless you know the truth?
April 10, 2008 at 6:27 pm |
I’ve diligently searched for a church where Jesus Christ is pre-eminent in everything. It took some time, but God was faithful in our search because Scripture commands true believers to gather together.
Heb 10:24-25 — And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
The following are random thoughts, not in any sort of prioritized order. I’ve had a long day at work and admittedly my mind is beginning to wander at the end of another long day.
In my local church, we…
Come under the faithful preaching of the whole counsel of God;
Warn sinners of God’s approaching judgment;
Pray – the body comes together regularly for the express purpose of praying for others (both spiritually, emotionally and physically);
Train up others to send for the gospel – I believe next to glorifying God, this is one of the chief purposes of local churches;
Consider one another — regard one another carefully, being mindful of each other to stimulate godliness and repentance unto good works;
Provoke one another in love; the loving behavior God expects from His redeemed body is obedience to His Word;
Exhort one another, coming alongside our brethren them to encourage them according to the Scripture;
Hold each other accountable by examining our lives in light of Scripture;
Practice discernment – judging between right & wrong (according to the Bible; not society)
There’s my list — in no particular order.
Lest anyone wonder whether I believe there is a serious problem facing today’s churches, I readily acknowledge the following problems with most of today’s churches:
Watering down of the true gospel
No discernment of false doctrines
Too much entertainment and not enough faithful preaching
Acceptance of sexually immoral lifestyles
Acceptance of signs, wonders and tongues
Too many unsaved pastors, elders and deacons leading flocks
Women pastors, elders and deacons
Acceptance of divorce and remarriage
Disregard for biblical absolutes
Babe in Chirst, I took the time to thoughtfully and diligently answer your questions to me. If you’re still frequenting this blogsite, then I would now like you to answer my questions to you: how many errors can one hear on Family Radio before that ministry is declared apostate? How many errors is its leader permitted to have before he is considered to be a false teacher?
April 10, 2008 at 9:50 pm |
babe in Christ,
I have been avoiding discussing Family Radio up to now because that ministry caused much grief for me in the past, almost destroying my marriage. Anyway, when 1994 came and went, that was enough for me. God opened my eyes and I stopped listening to FR. Since 1994, FR has been preaching one error after another. I know from various statements made on this blog, that you are a follower of FR. It is strange to me that you are able to see the apostacy in all other churches except your own. Ask God to open your eyes.
April 10, 2008 at 10:40 pm |
Jeff,
It only take one error, if it is the right one!
Will,
I haven’t listen to Harold on family radio for over 17 years! So I guess your knowledge of me is wrong!
April 11, 2008 at 9:17 am |
None one on earth has 100% correct doctrine. So if we think it takes one error to be apostate, the we all are apostate. All churches, christians, radio stations are apostate, if it takes only one error. You are apostate also, because you believe all churches are apostate, which is wrong. So by your own defintion, you are apostate, and we are all apostate, because no one in the history of the world, except CHRIST, has lived perfectly and has PERFECT DOCTRINE, including you babe.
1 COR 13
2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Some who never read the Bible, who simply trusts in Christ as their Savior and loves others and tries to help others become saved has more truth and love in their life, then all of us who are trying to prove the churches or anyone else is apostate.
God Blesss
Jim B
jimbbbbb@gmail.com
April 11, 2008 at 9:41 am |
So far it has been establish that one doesn’t need to belong to a man-made organized religious group of any kind to bring the message of truth.
And a church can have believers among them and that church can be apostate. Having believer in a church is not a criterion that one would use to determine if a church is apostate or not.
April 11, 2008 at 9:57 am |
Believing ALL CHURCHES ARE APOSTATE is saying that ALL CHRISTIANS who fellowship together on planet earth are unsaved and ruled by the devil. God says that where 2 or 3 are gathered together, that is a church. Are you saying that all believers should sit home by ourselves and study the Bible to prove the churches are apostate? is this the christian life? If we fellowship together in a fellowship, church, or whatever you want to call it, is this sin? should we sit home by ourself and study the Bible? It is against the Bible to be by ourself. So please answer this question, how is sitting home by ourself and studying the Bible to prove all churches are apostate living the christian life? Please answer this question, Jeff and Cindy, and all of us, address every one of your questions, and all you do is keep repeating the the churches are apostate.
HOW DO YOU FULFILL THIS SCIPTURE?
HEBREWS 10
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
PLEASE ANSWER US THIS QUESTION: IS SITTING HOME BY YOURSELF AND TRYING TO PROVE THAT ALL CHURCHES ARE APOSTATE, THE CHRISTIAN LIFE? PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION, THANK YOU.
April 11, 2008 at 10:01 am |
Jim,
All churches, Christians, radio stations are apostate if the error they declare is the right one!
For example, you have declared that I am apostate, because I believe that all churches are apostate: So you have agreed also that it takes only one error to make this judgment that I am apostate.
In your estimation because I hold the position that all man-organized religious groups are apostate, this one error was enough in your mind to call me apostate!
So if this is not you view, then why call me apostate if only I have committed one error?
And if this is not your view, for that sake of clarity and the love of the truth, then answer me the question I asked before which was: “What criterion do you use to determine that the church you go to is not apostate?
April 11, 2008 at 11:20 am |
Jeff,
I know that within you is also a desire not to be snared by beguilement of the serpent or else you would have not written many articles on this matter, particularly on Identifying Religious Cults, Who Is Telling The Truth?
You, Jeff, like myself, have had experience of discussing controversial matters, so you must have notice that they do not always end in edification, or in the clarity by which either party was presenting; Usually disagreements arises when somebody says something that the other perceives that the other has not spoken clearly or truthfully; then passion becomes anger because they think that the other is arguing from pride and not from the question at hand. This may continue in abuse and harassment until they are so disturbed that they can’t continue listing to the other.
I say this because I don’t want you to think that I have any antagonism against you or any other, but only for the sake of discovering the truth of the matter.
Now if you are like me, I would like to continue to probe deeper into this question, but if not I will let you alone.
I am very willing to be proven in error if I say anything which is not true, and very willing to prove any one else wrong that is in error.
In fact I am more prepared and willing rather to be proven wrong than to prove another wrong. I trust this to be the greatest reward of the two.
I would then conclude that to hold an erroneous view of truth to be of the greatest evil of man.
So if you are like me, let us continue to communicate on this matter, but if you would rather not, let us make an end of it.
For I trust that the one healed receives the greater gain than the one who does the healing
April 11, 2008 at 12:10 pm |
Matthew 7
1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
I will not respond to “babe in christ” anymore in obedience to verse 6.
April 13, 2008 at 11:03 pm |
Jeff & Cindy,
I was particularly interested in the criteria you used in finding a Christ centered church. I would like to know further, how did you go about this? Did you attend church meetings at various churches or attend Sunday services at different churches? Or both? I would like to find a Christ centered church in the Long Island, NY area. Thank you.
Will
April 19, 2008 at 6:46 am |
Will,
I’ve been away, so I apologize for the tardiness of this response.
There was no shortcut or formula used for our ultimately finding our church — Liberty PCA. I was paying far less attention to what particular demonination a church belonged to and much more to how the church regarded the Word of God. That criterion itself eliminated most of the churches.
We started searching within our own community which is not lacking in numbers of churches, but many we could eliminate based upon their regard for the Bible. We went to some independent “Bible Churches”, but things didn’t seem right.
Of course, throughout the entire process we were praying that the HS would lead us to where He wanted us to be…not necesasarily where we wanted ourselves to be. In the end, we wound up attending a small PCA church in the neighboring county, From the first Sunday, it felt like home. We researched the PCA’s doctrine and beliefs — and it was firmly rooted in traditional reformed doctrines.
Is it perfect? Certainly not.
Are there certain aspects of their corporate doctrinal positions that I don’t entirely agree with? Yes
Do I believe it is apostate and serving the kingdom of Satan rather than the Kingdom of God? Absolutely not!
So Will, in the final analysis, all I can really offer is to search the churches and do your homework to learn about each one’s local history, their current leadership, their confessions and creeds.
If you’re still searching for a faithful church, then I’ll offer this as a first step in your journey. You can study the doctrines of the PCA church (not to be confused with PC USA) to see if it satisfies your criteria. If it looks like it does, then as a second step here is a listing of PCA churches in NY (sorted by city):
https://processor.pcanet.org/ac/directory/directory.cfm
May the LORD guide you to where He wants you to be.
April 19, 2008 at 10:08 pm |
Thank you Jeff & Cindy, I appreciate your guidance and I will certainly search this out. I pray that God leads me where I should go.
April 20, 2008 at 9:05 am |
Harold Camping is a false prophet who said the world will end in 1994, and was wrong, and he is a false prophet again by saying their will be a rapture of the Campingites on May 21, 2011, and for 5 months all of the unsaved “church” people will be tormented. On the contrary, all of the Campingites will be confused for those 5 months. On May 22, 2011, Harold Camping (if he is still alive) will say that he was wrong about the rapture, but the world will still end on Oct 21, 2011. So for 5 months, all of the Campingites will be the ones confused and tormented and hope that their CULT LEADER HAROLD CAMPING was correct about all of his heresies about the churches and the world ending on Oct 21, 2011. When Oct 22, 2011 comes, all of the brainwashed Campingites will be totally distraught, and will probably leave God altogether. This is the work of SATAN. I already saw this happen with the CULT group I was in that followed Harold Camping in the 1980s and early 1990s and they thought the world will end in 1994. Most of the cult members were so totally confused and hurt, that they left God altogether, and do no talk about God anymore. This is the work of the DEVIL
Harold Camping is a minister of Satan. He now aligns doctrinally very close to the Jehovah’s Witnesses who set a lot of dates for the end of the world, and also believe all Christian churches are of the Devil. Let me repeat myself with Love and Compassion for any follower of Harold Egbert Camping of Family Radio. Harold Camping is doing the work of Satan, and if you follow him, you are being decevied by the Devil and will be very confused and severely hurt when you leave your church and when the world does NOT end in 2011.
God Bless You and open all of our eyes.
Jim B.
Feel Free to email me,
jimbbbbb@gmail.com
April 20, 2008 at 7:35 pm |
This is a test reply from my mobile device to try to figure out why I can’t reply from my computer anymore.
April 21, 2008 at 4:31 pm |
Jeff and Cindy, thanks for the response. I used the example of Revelation 22:18 for the purpose of showing how easy it is for people to disagree on scripture. To me, the work “book” refers to the book of prophecy known as the Book of Revelation. Verse 19 even emphasizes this with the term “book of this prophesy”. I’m not sure how he could have been refering to the Bible as currently constituted as the KJV anyway, since when the apostles lived and wrote, there was no New Testament and no finalized Old Testament as we have it today.
I don’t want to presume to know God’s reason for everything he might do, but why would he reveal himself through inspired scripture for all time up until the Book of Revelation was written, and then cease all such communication with humankind? It’s never made sense to me. For example, while I don’t consider the founding documents of our country to be scripture, I do believe they were inspired of God. As a result of them we have the freedom to worship and even to have this discussion.
I just raise this as an example relative to the ATD posting because I think it illustrates how difficult it may be for various people to agree on points of doctrine yet who all believe that Christ is the Savior.
August 21, 2008 at 6:15 am |
People like to quote Matthew 18:20, but apparently don’t notice the words “in my name” in the verse which directly relates to Matthew 7 where we see that many who gather together in Christ’s name will be rejected by Christ Himself. I believe the following verses clearly show that the church age is over, but of course, God is in charge of revealing His truth in the Bible and all we can do is pray for salvation and understanding according to His perfect will and timing:
(Matthew 18:20) For where two or three are gathered together IN MY NAME, there am I in the midst of them.
(Matthew 7:21-23) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have WE not prophesied IN THY NAME? and IN THY NAME have cast out devils? and IN THY NAME done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work INIQUITY.
(Luke 13:24-27) STRIVE to enter in AT THE STRAIT GATE: for MANY, I say unto you, will SEEK to enter in, and SHALL NOT BE ABLE. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I KNOW YOU NOT whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, WE HAVE EATEN AND DRUNK IN THY PRESENCE, AND THOU HAST TAUGHT IN OUR STREETS. But he shall say, I tell you, I KNOW YOU NOT whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of INIQUITY.
(Matthew 24:12-14) And because INIQUITY SHALL ABOUND, THE LOVE OF MANY SHALL WAX COLD. But he that shall ENDURE UNTO THE END, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
(John 14:24) HE THAT LOVETH ME NOT KEEPETH NOT MY SAYINGS: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
(2 Timothy 4:3, 4) For THE TIME WILL COME WHEN THEY WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE; but after their own LUSTS shall they heap to themselves TEACHERS, having itching ears; And THEY SHALL TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, and shall be turned unto fables.
(John 17:17) Sanctify them through thy truth: THY WORD IS TRUTH.
(Daniel 12:9, 10) And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for THE WORDS [are] CLOSED UP AND SEALED TILL THE TIME OF THE END. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but THE WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND.
(Matthew 24:15) WHEN ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso READETH, let him UNDERSTAND:)
(Matthew 12:25) And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom DIVIDED against itself is brought to DESOLATION; and every city or house DIVIDED against itself SHALL NOT STAND:
(Revelation 18:2-5) And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, AND IS BECOME THE HABITATION OF DEVILS, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her FORNICATION, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her INIQUITIES.
(2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4) Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin be REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, shewing himself that he is God.
(1 Corinthians 3:17) If any man DEFILE THE TEMPLE of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is HOLY, WHICH [temple] YE ARE.
(Ephesians 2:20-22) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; IN WHOM ALL THE BUILDING FITLY FRAMED TOGETHER GROWETH unto an HOLY TEMPLE in the Lord: In whom ye also are BUILDED TOGETHER for an HABITATION OF GOD through the Spirit.
(Matthew 24:1, 2) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the BUILDINGS OF THE TEMPLE. And Jesus said unto them, SEE YE NOT ALL THESE THINGS? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be THROWN DOWN.
(Mark 13:13, 14) And ye shall be HATED of all [men] for my name’s sake: but he that shall ENDURE UNTO THE END, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea FLEE TO THE MOUNTAINS:
(Genesis 19:17) And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, ESCAPE FOR THY LIFE; LOOK NOT BEHIND THEE, neither stay thou in all the plain; ESCAPE TO THE MOUNTAIN, LEST THOU BE CONSUMED.
(Psalm 121:1, 2) I will lift up mine eyes unto THE HILLS, FROM WHENCE COMETH MY HELP.
MY HELP [cometh] FROM THE LORD, which made heaven and earth.
(Revelation 18:21) And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be THROWN DOWN, and shall be found no more at all.
August 21, 2008 at 6:44 am |
p.s. Of course, praying for salvation does not save us as salvation is of God entirely, but it is good to be AT the strait gate…the truth of the Bible…the word of God…Jesus Christ…rather than following the many in churches today (false prophets) who are bringing a lie that is the doctrine of “accepting” Christ, which is a work and not the salvation message of the Bible when all verses on the subject are taken into account and compared to come to truth.
August 21, 2008 at 11:42 pm |
I never have understood this. People often talk about the need to pray for salvation and then have to qualify this with “but of course it has absolutely no influence on our salvation”. Then why do it? If it’s all predestined, what’s the point? I don’t think this is really what the Bible really teaches, especially if all verses on the subject are taken into account.
August 23, 2008 at 2:04 am |
I believe the point is to be AT the door…the strait gate, and not away from the way, the truth and the life…the word of God…Jesus Christ. In Luke 13 we see that many Christians will be rejected by Christ because they didn’t seek Him where He may be found. They thought they knew Him already and that He taught in their streets (relating to being in spiritual Babylon, i believe). God is sovereign in the matter and saves who He will and is not obligated to save anyone because of anything that they have done according to their filthy rags works, but if we are hoping that God will save us, we won’t turn our ears away from the truth of the Bible and we won’t be in the midst of the desolation in the churches during this time of great tribulation. May God be merciful to us all who seek Him where he may be found and may His will be done.
(Luke 13:24-27) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, WE HAVE EATEN AND DRUNK IN THY PRESENCE, AND THOU HAST TAUGHT IN OUR STREETS. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity.
(Zephaniah 2:3) Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it MAY BE ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’S anger.
(Psalm 130:5) I WAIT for the LORD, my soul doth WAIT, and in his WORD do I HOPE.
(Lamentations 3:26) [It is] good that [a man] should both HOPE and quietly WAIT for the salvation of the LORD.
August 23, 2008 at 2:43 am |
p.s. I just wanted to add that we are all the same in God’s eyes…all sinners…all needing God’s righteousness because we don’t have our own to enter into heaven. That said, i think if we are not at the strait gate, we cannot be saved. God tells us in Revelation 18:4 to come out of Babylon. Why does He say this? Because it’s a place where salvation cannot happen now. We shouldn’t want to partake of her plagues, but rather, we should want to be healed by Christ who is the giver of life.
God, of course, can steer those of His elect unto Him according to His perfect will and timing, but He does say to come out, and to flee in Matthew 24. Who are we to disobey the command of God?
August 23, 2008 at 11:32 pm |
It sounds like what you are saying is that if God intended to save you, that it is possible to prevent your own salvation by not “being at the straight gate”. Again, if it is all predestined by God, why worry about it? If you’re going to be saved, you will be. If not, you won’t. If it has been predestined by God, are you saying you can change what God has predestined?
August 24, 2008 at 2:14 am |
God is all knowing. He knows everyone who would be born thousands of years before they’re born and He also knows who will hope for His salvation (I guess seek was the wrong word to use in my above post…sorry.). Can anyone seek Him with all their heart? Absolutely not. That’s why the Bible says in Romans 3:12, that no one seeks God. Only God, through the spiritual hearing of His word, can create a new heart within us that can (and will) believe and confess Christ when God saves us. Only as a RESULT of Christ’s work of faith in us through the spiritual hearing of God’s word, the Bible, will we truly believe and confess Him with all our heart. Only God can give us spiritual ears to hear His word and only God can cause us to believe with all our heart (and thereby confess Christ). The people of Nineveh recognized their sin and hoped for God’s mercy, realizing that salvation was not in their hands and was of God entirely. They didn’t defiantly thumb their noses at God, nor did they say whatever will be will be. God forgave them, not because their actions obligated God to save them in any way, but because God chose to have mercy on them according to His sovereign will and good pleasure. God could have chosen to not have mercy on them, but we know from the Bible, that God did have mercy on them, which is an encouragement to all who are hoping and waiting for salvation at the strait gate. Here are some verses that show us that God is a merciful God and we shouldn’t lose hope. May God bless:
(Matthew 5:5) Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
(Psalm 25:9-11) The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way. All the paths of the LORD [are] mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies. For thy name’s sake, O LORD, pardon mine iniquity; for it [is] great.
(Zephaniah 2:3) Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’S anger.
(Revelation 6:14-17) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(Psalm 5:5) The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
(Psalm 32:5-7) I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him. Thou [art] my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
(Isaiah 55:6, 7) Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
(Psalm 119:149-151) Hear my voice according unto thy lovingkindness: O LORD, quicken me according to thy judgment. They draw nigh that follow after mischief: they are far from thy law. Thou [art] near, O LORD; and all thy commandments [are] truth.
(Psalm 130:5) I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.
(Lamentations 3:26) [It is] good that [a man] should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.
August 24, 2008 at 11:20 am |
But, as you say, the people of Nineveh did not receive salvation because of anything they did. God must have intended to save them from the beginning if it was all predestined. So, by this interpretation of the scriptures, the people of Nineveh could have “thumbed there noses” and God would still have saved them because he had predetermined to do so. How could those people ever change that? So, again, why bother worrying or doing anything special given that all outcomes are predetermined and we can have no impact on them?
By the way, I thought your use of the word “seek” was very appropriate. There are many places in the scriptures in which we are told to seek the Lord. My favorite is Luke 11:9 “And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.”
August 24, 2008 at 2:28 pm |
I think what you’re forgetting is that God is outside of time. From His perspective, this world already happened from start to finish. I think God is so all knowing, that He knows what everyone will do in any given situation as a result of any series of events, knowing even how we will choose to react in any situation. Look at the men that God chose such as Noah. Noah listened to God and did what God told him to do even though building an ark on dry land must have seemed crazy to most everyone living back then and may have been an embarrassing thing to do at face value. We see that God knew exactly what would happen after God entered the timeline and altered it. In other words, being all knowing means that God knows every course of action we will take in any given situation we could ever be in. And of course, God steers us to do His will and He can harden or soften hearts. He is truly in charge of everything. That’s not to say He causes sin. No, He caused Pharaoh’s heart to harden in order to glorify Himself through Pharaoh’s destruction, i believe. The Bible shows us how God is in charge of everything. He is the potter and we are the clay. He raises people up and causes them to fall. However, He does all this while being perfect and without sin in every way. Can we understand the ways of God? No, because they are so far above our own understanding. Here are two verses about the omniscient mind of God:
(Romans 11:33) O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
(Isaiah 55:9) For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
We can’t understand His ways, but do know that He sees our need for salvation, and we do know He is a merciful God. We should always remember that when thinking our hope is in vain. The Bible does not say that hoping and waiting for salvation is in vain, but rather, the Bible says it’s good to do so. It’s like going down roads. One road leads to life and one road leads to death. Do we want to be on the road that leads to death? I don’t think so. Here are afew verses that show what i’m talking about:
(Psalm 9:15-17) The heathen are sunk down in the pit [that] they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken. The LORD is known [by] the judgment [which] he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.
Do we want to sink in a pit? Do we want to be snared in a net?
Do we want to be turned into hell?
May God bless.
August 24, 2008 at 8:02 pm |
I agree that God is all-knowing. However, we are not God and therefore really can’t view things from His perspective, only ours from within time. Again, if there is truly nothing that I can do to impact my salvation, positively or negatively, then what is the point of bothering with the whole issue? I still don’t see an answer to this in anything you have posted.
In fact, as I ponder this a bit more, Psalms 9:15-17, ” 15 The heathen are sunk down in the pit that THEY MADE: in the net which THEY hid is their own foot taken.
16 The Lord is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of HIS OWN hands. Higgaion. Selah.
17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”
What I learn from this scripture is that while it is the Lord’s Judgment which is all powerful and that we cannot avoid, it is also the works of the wicked which brings on that judgement. Of course I agree that salvation is unobtainable on our own and that we totally rely on God’s grace for that. I just can’t see from the scriptures that nothing we do has any impact on it.
August 24, 2008 at 10:01 pm |
Well, one thing’s for sure, God does ALL the work of salvation. I agree, that is certainly true.
(Galatians 2:16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(2 Thessalonians 1:11) Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:
(John 6:29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
April 26, 2009 at 9:03 pm |
The dictionary definition of cult:
“A religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.”
This is what most people understand to be the definition of cult. This word typically calls to mind people like Jim Jones or Charles Manson. I think it is wreckless to pin this title on many organizations that do a tremendous amount of good in the world. Why bother doing so? Why not simply state that you disagree with their beliefs? Why use such “fighting words”? Doesn’t seem very Christ-like to me. Besides, to the billions you have ostracized, I suppose, the author of this post belongs to a cult under the definition used here.