If we do not OBEY that Gospel, we are damned for all eternity: “… the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power” [2Thess 1:7-9]
However, even if we know what the Gospel is, we cannot obey the Gospel perfectly in and of ourselves. Wonderfully, Jesus Christ obeyed the Gospel perfectly, on behalf of those He came to save. Those whom Christ saves are then supposed go out into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature – to all those whom God puts in their path as they journey through life. Therefore believers in Christ need to know what this Gospel is so that they can present it to others, as clearly and accurately as possible. Many people who may be genuine Christians often do not have a proper understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They do not fully understand what it is that saves a soul or how it is that God performs His work of salvation in a person. Just like Apollos, they need to be instructed in the way of God more perfectly: “And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.” [Acts 18:24-26]
WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?
The Gospel or Good News of Jesus Christ is God’s plan of salvation and it can be summarized as follows:
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ALL are spiritually lost – all have sinned and are unfit for heaven. (Rom. 3:10-23)
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God is holy and NO SIN can be in His presence. So even one sin qualifies me for eternal separation from God (James 2:10)
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ETERNAL punishment in hell is the penalty for sin. (Luke 12:4-5, Rev. 14:11, Rev. 20:15)
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No works, no human effort of any kind can provide salvation, nor can anyone participate in their salvation (Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Isa. 59:1-12, Rom. 10:3)
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Only a Divine substitute who takes the punishment for ALL my sins can eliminate the need for me to go to hell (Isa. 43:11, Isa. 63:5)
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Jesus Christ – and ONLY Christ – is that Divine substitute – the “Lamb of God”. (Isa. 43:11, Luke 2:11, Acts 4:12, Isa. 53, John 1:29, Titus 2:13, 3:6)
“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
God is the One who opens our blind eyes to the truth of who God is and who we are and He does this by regenerating our spiritually dead soul:
John 11:25-26 – “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
God does everything when it comes to a person becoming saved:
Ezekiel 36:25-27 – “Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” John 16:7-8 – “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment”
God has chosen to use believers to get this gospel (or “good news”) out, to sow it in men’s hearts:
Mark 4:15 – “And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.”
Once we have preached the Gospel to someone it is up to God to do what He wills with our seed sowing. Nevertheless, we are obligated to pray to the Lord of the harvest to send out workers to water the seed that we sow and to pray to God to have mercy on the souls of men just as Moses interceded for Israel. When it is God’s time to save someone, He will give them new life from above. He will put His Spirit in them.
What Gospel are YOU trusting in?
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” [Galatians 1:8-9]
To God Be The Glory!
March 12, 2008 at 9:33 pm |
What are the ground rules for this blog? Is it acceptable to discuss an alternate view on a small piece of the opening statement, if done in an appropriate manner?
March 12, 2008 at 10:15 pm |
As Christians, let us not be deceived. The Bible is the Word of God, it is the truth. There is no need for any “alternate views” to be posted here. We hear enough of that in the world today. Be a true Christian, love God and love his word as it stands.
March 12, 2008 at 10:32 pm |
Interesting. I agree that the Bible is true. However, I’ve heard numerous reasonable sounding interpretations of it. How do you know which one is correct? As a truth seeker, am I to find answers to my questions here or is this just a place for a bunch of people that agree on something to basically say amen to each other?
March 13, 2008 at 8:35 am |
Jeff & Cindy would have to speak on this, I certainly do not own this blog and probably should not be speaking for it. However, the name of this blog is “Spreading God’s Word”, not anyone elses. The St. James version by the way is a direct translation of the Bible, it is not an “interpretation”. Any words that were added in the St. James version were done so in italics to let the reader know that the word was added in English. So the translators were not trying to hide anything. The words were added for edification, not interpretation.
March 13, 2008 at 10:13 am |
In the opening statement, a few scriptures arequoted. There are many more related scriptures in the Bible that I have long standing questions about. As a young adult, I left the Catholic church because I was basically told that I shouldn’t be asking certain questions and that I should just accept the doctrine. I’m inquisitive and want to understand. I’m just looking for a forum in which to have a respectful open discussion.
March 13, 2008 at 2:50 pm |
Gorilladad,
The reason we started this blog was to do precisely what you said … foster “a forum in which to have a respectful” dialogue about God’s Word. Recently, we had to stop a discussion thread when things got out of hand.
If you haven’t already done so, may we suggest using our calendar and going back to the earliest postings (from Sept 2006) and looking at the various topics. There are a number of topics posted covering a variety of topics. You may find some that specifically address areas of interest for you — and we’d welcome your comments about them.
Coming from a Catholic background, there are several posting related to unbiblical teachings of Catholocism you may find especially relevant.
And if you have specific Scripture verses you’d like us to comments on, we’d be happy to do that in a posting. In this way, others can then comment on it and a discussion can ensue. Our email is: watkinsclan@comcast.net
Thanks again for taking the time to send us your comments.
To God Be The Glory!
Jeff & Cindy
March 13, 2008 at 9:10 pm |
I also came from a Roman Catholic background, started questioning their doctrine about 25 yrs. ago. I have done alot of research and prayer to find the truth over the years. My research brought me down many roads, most of them the wrong ones. I believe I have now found the truth after doing some research as to how the KJV of the Bible was put together. This blog site is also a great help, Jeff & Cindy have done a great job with this. Praise be to God.
March 14, 2008 at 12:22 am |
Thank you for the welcoming note, Jeff and Cindy. I have long since left the teachings of the Catholic church, so I won’t search for topics related to that. To the current posting, I need a bit of help with the reference to John 6:44
“No man can bcome to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
How do we know that the Father doesn’t draw all men unto him? In John 12:32, Christ states:
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
So, I agree that we are all completely dependant upon God for our salvation and that we can’t do it ourselves, but it seems to me that God would have all of us come unto him.
March 14, 2008 at 7:29 pm |
Gorilladad,
Excellent verse. Let’s dig into it a bit and see if we can find God’s unchanging, consistent Truth.
John 12:32 says, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.”
OK, the first question we must ask is this: who are the “all” referred to in the verse? Could it possibly be referring to all people everywhere without exception? Or could it be referring to all of a particular group of people?
In the Bible “all” does not always mean every single one of whatever is being referred to…in this instance, every single person in the world. A perfect example is Luke 2:1 — “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.” The “all” in this Luke 2:1 doesn’t refer to the entire world, but only a specific subset of it — namely, all of the Roman Empire. In the same way that Paul’s statement that the gospel “was preached to every creature under heaven” in Colossians 1:23 doesn’t mean that even the lizards and frogs were evangelized, so too these passages don’t teach that God planned for the atonement to save every single sinner that ever lived.
Verses with universal terms must be interpreted quite carefully. For example, what did God mean when He had Paul write in Romans 5:18 that the free gift came “upon all men unto justification of life?” We know He cannot be referring to all men without exception because the Bible clearly teaches that not every single man will be saved. The context of “all men” in Romans 5 indicates all men who are under the covenant headship of Christ. Therefore, we’ve got to rely on the context and allow Scripture to interpret Scripture.
The “all” in John 12:32 is referring to all true believers (i.e., Christians). That is consistent with the whole of Scripture. Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, we know it cannot possibly refer to every single person in the world. The Bible says Jesus is the only way to the Father (John 14:6) and that there is no other name under heaven by which a man may be saved (Acts 4:12). No one can be saved apart from Christ.
The “all” in John 12:32 can only be referring to the elect — every single member of God’s elect…”all” of them. To say God is referring universally to all people everywhere is contrary to many, many other verses in Scripture – some of which include John 6:37-40; Eph. 1:4;11; Rom.. 8:29-30; Acts 13:48.
So we are on the safest ground – and the most solid Rock foundation – to understand John 12:32’s “all” as meaning every single one of the elect. That’s how we view this verse as we compare it with the whole of God’s Word. It’s wonderful to see the consistency of the Bible.
To God Be The Glory!
March 15, 2008 at 12:29 am |
I don’t mean to debate your last post, but I do want to point out a different view of part of it. I just want to show how it is possible to read the same scriptures and come to a different conclusion.
I’ll take Romans 5:18 as an example, but I would include the following verse 19:
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
In the first verse, it says that the free gift of salvation is given to all men. In the second verse it says that many will be made righteous, distinctly different from “all”. To me, this says that the gift is available to all, but not all accept it.
When I see the words “all men”, I have a hard time understanding it as anything but all men.
March 15, 2008 at 5:43 am |
Gorilladad,
Thanks for the prompt response. We’re not debating — at least not in my mind; we’re discussing God’s holy, inerrant Word, comparing one part of Scripture with others to ensure we’ve come to the correct conclusions — and that’s a very good thing.
I think we might really be saying the same thing and maybe I’m just being a bit dense — it wouldn’t be the first time either
Adam represented everyone in his death. The “all” is universal in scope — every single human being past, present and future without exception.
And because the only ones who are made alive in Christ are the true believers (Rom. 6:11; Rom 8:10), Christ in His sacrifical death represents the elect…and only the elect. Every single one of them.
Christ commands everyone to believe. That’s a biblical command from the Creator of Heaven & Earth; not a polite invitation to please please please follow after Me if you really really want to.
The fact that only a small remnant will be obedient to this command and repent and live changed lives demonstrates that it’s only the elect who will respond.
All (universal in nature) are commanded; but few (all of the elect) respond.
Aren’t we saying the same thing?
To God Be The Glory!
March 15, 2008 at 6:41 pm |
I really appreciate this chance to discuss these things with someone. I haven’t had this in recent years.
I think what we are saying is very close to the same. The thing that I have always struggled with is the idea of the elect. Given the following two scriptures, for example:
1 Timothy 2:3,4
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 1:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
It also seems to me that various scriptures indicate that our election is not necessarily sure, as in 2 Peter 1:10
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall
So, perhaps election is not an election to assured salvation, but rather to particular blessings and duties in this life and the life to come under the provision that we “give dilligence to make [our] calling and election sure”
Romans chapters 9-11 talk about election, and make it sound to me that Israel as a people were elected to have the blessings of the Gospel in this life along with many other blessings, but did not always live worthy of this. The allegory of the olive tree really sounds to me like the blessings of the Gospel are available others as well who will be grafted in.
March 16, 2008 at 6:57 am |
Gorilladad,
I appreciate your struggle with election. I was brought up under the polar opposite of election – that God had done everything He could to make salvation possible for me but that the rest was up to me (i.e., accepting Him). So I was once where you might now be.
Let me apologize in advance for the long response that follows, but the question you raised concerning election is very important — and the verses you cited are not in opposition to that biblical doctrine.
Those verses, if isolated from the rest of Scripture, definitely appear to teach that God wants everyone to be saved. But the problem with that is that not everyone is becoming saved.
1 Tim 2:3-4 — For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
One can properly ask, isn’t this verse saying that Christ died for all men? Especially when the 6th verse from that same chapter says Christ gave Himself a “ransom for all”? The short answer is No. These verses just cannot mean “all men without exception” because if they did then “all men without exception” would be ransomed. Period. And we know that isn’t the case.
As I mentioned in an earlier comment, “all” doesn’t always mean “universally all”. [I think I’ll do a separate posting on this because it is so very important] I believe Scripture teaches us that a saying like this means all men without distinction, all classes of men (as in 1 Tim 1-2).
If “all” meant every man on the earth, then how could Timothy offer prayers for every individual man on earth in verse 1? The word must be limited in some way.
If it is God’s plan that everyone become saved, then there’s a problem with God’s plan: it isn’t working. I’m sure you & I would agree that if God plans something, then it will come to pass as we see throughout the Bible — the universal flood, the destruction of Egypt, the destruction of Jericho. All these events happened and no human intervention could stop them. Even Abraham could not prevent the destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim.
When 2 Peter 3:9 speaks of the long suffering of God, it cannot mean that He is waiting for people to accept Him. We know this from the following passages:
(Rom 3:11 KJV) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(Eph 2:1 KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
(Eph 2:5 KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
The condition of unsaved mankind is that they are spiritually dead…and this condition prevents them from seeking God. The dead can do nothing but remain dead — unless they are raised to life from an outside source. This means that unless God raises a person, they remain dead. Lazarus didn’t raise himself; the Lord Jesus Christ give him back his life. We know it was Christ who did it because Lazarus was a rotting corpse – and that serves as a picture for how the unsaved are spiritually dead corpses. This condition precludes anyone from giving themselves spiritual life by raising themselves. Dead is dead and there’s no other way around it.
The longsuffering of God that we see in 2 Peter 3:9 can’t refer to God waiting for an individual “to accept Him” because it is simply impossible for the spiritually dead to make themselves alive. So that’s what this verse cannot be teaching – based upon everything else we find in Scripture.
I believe in this verse that God is showing us an aspect of his character, namely His longsuffering and patience. (I need more of that trait myself). God’s patience is revealed to us in that He is waiting until the last person becomes saved before He comes in judgment on the last day.
This line of thinking is consistent with 1 Pet 3:20 — Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
This verse makes the same point as verse 9 earlier as it relates to God’s longsuffering. God wasn’t waiting for people to accept Him or turn to Him…He was waiting for the completion of the Ark.
Here’s an analogy that helped me better understand this, and maybe you’ll find it helpful as well. If we were to understand the longsuffering of God to mean that He sits in Heaven waiting for some dead sinner to accept Him, then that’s like a person who loses a friend or loved one in death. Instead of them burying that person, they take the coffin and the body to their home and then sit by it day and night waiting for the deceased person to come alive. How long will it be before the deceased comes to life by themselves? (rhetorical question) So too, unless God raises up a person spiritually to newness of life, they also will just remain dead.
I believe Scripture teaches us that the long suffering of God means He patiently waits for the redemption of all those who were named in the Lamb’s Book of Life before the foundation of the world and have yet come into physical existence according to His sovereign time table.
You also cited 2 Peter 1:10 — Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall
There are some key words in that verse that have specific meanings according to how they’re used elsewhere in the Bible:
Diligence – Hasten, be eager, do one’s best
Calling – Summons, invitation, or vocation
Election – Selection, choice, or chosen
Sure – Firm stable, or secure
Fall – Stumble, err, or sin
Every Christian must be diligent in seeing if they’re truly saved. But we shouldn’t get fixated upon it to the exclusion of everything else. In other words, we don’t have to go to every altar call or to every evangelistic meeting and walk an aisle. There are Christians who are so fearful they’re unsaved, they never progress past receiving the Lord every time an invitation is given.
I believe that the Bible here is teaching that:
1. if we know we’re saved but aren’t becoming more spiritually mature, then we need to spend more time reading, studying and applying God’s Word – ie, making our calling and election sure.
2. if we’re not saved, then eventually we’ll fall away and lose interest in the things of the Lord. We must become saved and we must seek the Lord.
Those are the two scenarios behind this verse telling us that we need to make our calling and election sure.
2 Cor 13:5 — Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
We must do a spiritual inventory to make sure we’re walking in the faith. A Christian can be saved but may not be exuding their Christian faith, especially if they are walking in a hard-hearted mindset. This is why it’s so important to make sure that our Christian walk correctly represents an inward transformation. (By the way, the former discussion behind Topic #61 on this site wasn’t reflecting this trait and that’s why we cut it off.) If we do a spiritual inventory, then this verse is teaching us that we will not fall or go back into the ways of our former unsaved lifestyle.
Gorilladad, I hope I addressed your question and adequately related my response to the verses you cited. Look for a separate posting on the word “all” in the near future.
Happy Palm Sunday to All
March 16, 2008 at 10:11 pm |
Happy Palm Sunday to you as well Jeff & Cindy and I just wanted to say that I appreciate your edification and explanation of these verses. I pray that this helps everyone who reads this.
March 17, 2008 at 12:41 am |
Jeff and Cindy,
Wow, that’s alot to digest. Thanks for taking the time. I have been busy with lots of family stuff today and didn’t have time to consider all you have posted, so for now, maybe I can ask just one question.
Early in your post you say that the verse in 1 Timothy that says Christ gave Himself a ransom for all can’t mean “all men without exception”. I don’t understand this. I don’t understand why it must mean that all men would necessarily be saved.
I refer again to 2 Peter 1:9,10:
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall
Verse 9, I think, makes it clear that it is referring to someone who has had his sins forgiven, given that “he was purged from his old sins”. Verse 10 suggests the possibility that it is possible for such to fall, using the conditional “if”. so, if such have the possibility of losing their salvation, that implies that while the atonement made their salvation possible, an individual may fail to be dilligent in making their election sure. If it be not sure, then it must be unsure in that case. I probably haven’t worded this very well, it’s late. Can you see what I mean?
I will try to go through the rest of your post this week. I’ll have to check out the new posting on “all” as well. Thanks again.
March 17, 2008 at 10:46 am |
To steal a line from the TERMINATOR, “I AM BACK”.
To avoid getting personal with anyone I will ONLY QUOTE SCRIPTURES, and I will NOT ADD or TAKE AWAY, OR EVEN COMMENT ABOUT THESE BIBLE VERSES. LET THE BIBLE SPEAK FOR ITSELF, MANY PEOPLE NEED TO RATIONALIZE, TWIST, CORRUPT, TORMENT, RAPE, AND MALIGN THE WORD OF GOD. I BELIEVE WE SHOULD LET IT SPEAK FOR ITSELF WITHOUT ADDING, SUBTRACTING OR EVEN COMMENTING!
On the subject of election vs the promise that all can be saved if they believe, both views are correct. Whosever believes will be saved (John 3:16), but after we become truly saved, we find out that we were one of God’s elect. But we should not present the Gospel to the unsaved like some do. Some say “Hope your are saved and one of God’s elect”. This is heresy, we simply tell people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If anyone does truly believe, this is evident that he/she was one of God’s elect.
Here are the verses proving both points of view WITHOUT COMMENT.
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Acts 16:29-31 (New King James Version)
29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “**BELIEVE*** on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved…..
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that **WHOEVER** believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Matthew 19:25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is ***IMPOSSIBLE***, but with God all things are possible.”
John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day
Ephesians 2
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
James Chapter 2:
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
James Chapter 3:
1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment
James Chapter 3:
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
God Bless Us throught the Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit of Truth, Grace, Peace, and Love. May God speak to us through His Word without us adding, subtracting or twisting the Bible.
God Bless,
Jim B.
March 17, 2008 at 1:20 pm |
Jim B wrote, “On the subject of election vs the promise that all can be saved if they believe, both views are correct. Whosever believes will be saved (John 3:16), but after we become truly saved, we find out that we were one of God’s elect.”
An excellent summary of the biblical doctrine of election. Thank you.
March 17, 2008 at 1:38 pm |
Gorilladad,
Christ’s atonement didn’t merely make salvation a possiblity for all; He actually saved every single one of “His sheep”. Every single true believer can rest assured that they’ll never lose their salvation.
If, as you said in your last comment, the atonement only “made their salvation possible”, then these lost souls are relying upon a works-based salvation — which means it is a dead salvation.
If I have to “reach out and accept the gift of eternal life that Christ has made possible for me” [to quote many of today's religious leaders], then that means I have to do something in order to put myself into a position so I can be saved. The bottom line with this line of thinking is that no matter how hard you try to clean it up, it still boils down to a works-based salvation.
We’ve posted numerous items throughout this blogsite expanding upon fundamental biblical truths such as total depravity, unconditional election, particular atonement, irresistable grace and eternal security. Each topic posting has a healthy dose of proof texts. You can search the site to easily locate them if you desire.
We thank you for your inquiries. Jeff
March 17, 2008 at 1:55 pm |
It is so then that a believer from any denomination who has never picked up a Bible could be saved based on the doctrine of election?
March 17, 2008 at 3:17 pm |
If I could further my original question, based on the doctrine of election, a person could be saved and not know he is saved?
March 18, 2008 at 1:12 am |
JimB’s post brings up another question I have about all of this. One of the things growing up that I just could not accept is the idea that if a person wasn’t baptized that they were going to hell. I had a friend accross the street who was protestant and I was always had this sad feeling that he was hopeless. He died while we were young and this really got me thinking about this. If I apply this to the billions of people around the world who have never heard of Christ, what happens to them? God created us all in his image. We are his children (Acts 17:28; Heb. 12:9,10). Would He create offspring and predestinate a large number of them to an assured horrible eternity of suffering by not electing them?
March 18, 2008 at 5:57 am |
Gorilladad,
What type of baptism are you referring to: water baptism or spiritual baptism?
Water baptism is only a sign or a pointer that directs our attention to the real work that God performs in our life when we become saved. Just like the OT circumcision was a physical sign that pointed to the spiritual cutting off (or death) of our sinful nature.
When God saves us, we are cleansed from our sins and able to stand righteous before the Father — not because of any work that we’ve done…but only through Christ’s faithfulness and obedience in paying for the sins of His elect. It is this type of baptism that is absolutely required in order for anyone to become saved. But it’s spiritual in nature, not the water baptism that we typically think of.
Water baptism does not save anyone and in the final analysis whether or not we’re baptized in water is unimportant: what’s important is whether God has cleansed us from our sins. Many unbelievers have been baptized in water, but without God’s action in cleansing them from their sins (ie, saving them) all they’ll have to show for it is a wet head (or entire body).
Without being spiritually baptized, we all are destined for an eternity in hell. Topic #58 addresses this: http://jeffandcindy.wordpress.com/2006/11/29/topic-58-is-baptism-a-requirement-for-salvation/
As to your other observation, you wrote “If I apply this to the billions of people around the world who have never heard of Christ, what happens to them? God created us all in his image. We are his children (Acts 17:28; Heb. 12:9,10). Would He create offspring and predestinate a large number of them to an assured horrible eternity of suffering by not electing them?”
The Bible tells us the whole human race is on the path to hell. Every last human being ought to go to hell. The Bible says, “There is none righteous, no, not one.” And “the wages of sin is death.” And the death that God has in view is eternal damnation. And God is under obligation to save not a single one of us. Therefore, we can’t say that He didn’t elect us to go to hell. We go to hell because of our sins; we go to hell because we’ve rebelled against God. We go to hell to pay for our sins.
Now He elected a people for Himself out of those who were going to hell, by taking upon Himself their sins and giving them
eternal life. And that’s election. Now why God, in His sovereign grace, elected one and not another, that’s entirely God’s
business. God says, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.”
March 18, 2008 at 6:27 am |
Will,
Yes, I suppose it is possible for someone to be saved but not yet know it. But I don’t think that state would persist for very long. The effectual working of the Holy Spirit indwelling that believer will lead him/her to truth and I believe they will begin to have a sense of the wonderful work of grace that God has worked within them.
What should be much more disturbing for all of us is the increasing number of people who are walking around thinking they’re saved but who aren’t. They think because they were baptized in water or because they walked down an aisle or because they said some sinner’s prayer, that they’re saved.
As for how God saves people, I’m not sure I can really delve into that. What I can say with assurance is that God uses His Word to reach the lost. That’s why He commanded us to carry out the Great Commission to proclaim the gospel to all the world. People who have never come under the hearing of the gospel in some way — thru witnessing, churches, various media, missionaries, etc — will be lost. That’s not Jeff & Cindy’s opinion; that’s the teaching from God’s Word.
We should all praise God that we have the wonderful blessing of coming under the hearing of His Word. And we all ought to do whatever we can to carry out the Great Commission.
March 18, 2008 at 8:25 am |
Okay, then this leads me to another question and perhaps the root of what I am looking for. As you know, I was brought up with the Roman Catholic doctrine which includes as you well know, praying to intercessors for help in various areas of life (the saints, the mother of Jesus, etc.). But the Roman Catholic doctrine also teaches that Jesus Christ died for our sins, however it stops there. The Catholic Church never tells us that we MUST BE SAVED THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. They tell us that we must confess our sins to a priest on a monthly basis (I realize that this is all untruth). I know that there are thousands, maybe millions of Roman Catholics out there that believe they are saved. The handful of Roman Catholics that I know personally are, in fact, very humble, living very humble lives, individuals who pray every day but who possibly may never have come to Christ as their personal saviour. Isn’t it entirely possible that individuals such as these are part of the elect?
March 18, 2008 at 1:24 pm |
Will wrote, “The handful of Roman Catholics that I know personally are, in fact, very humble, living very humble lives, individuals who pray every day but who possibly may never have come to Christ as their personal saviour. Isn’t it entirely possible that individuals such as these are part of the elect?”
I can’t say with assurance whether another person is truly saved. There may very well be some people who attend RC churches who are saved…but as the Holy Spirit applies His work of grace in their hearts and they begin to grow in the faith, I believe they’ll eventually find no alternative but to leave that denomination. Personally, I don’t think we can reconcile a “happy, practicing RC” and a “born again believer” — that’s like oil and water…they just don’t mix.
Based upon what the Bible teaches, I can say with complete assurance that individuals who have never come to Christ as their Savior…if they die in that condition…they will perish. John 14:6 — Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
We can praise God because of what 2 Chronicles 6:2 tells us — For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.
I hope that addressed your question.
To God Be The Glory!
March 18, 2008 at 3:08 pm |
Jeff & Cindy,
You certainly have addressed my question and you must have had experience with “happy, practicing” Roman Catholics because your absolutely right. I have tried to discuss salvation with RC’s and it is impossible, like you said, “oil and water”. Why do you think that situation exists with RC’s more so than other denominations? Is it because they actually believe that the RC Church that exists today is the same church that was carried out by St. Peter?
March 19, 2008 at 1:04 am |
Jeff and Cindy,
I still have alot of trouble with this concept of election. I think the Bible teaches that we are not totally depraved. That we have agency. As just one example, Romans 2:14-15:
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts….
If the law of God, though not preached to them, is nevertheless written in their hearts, how can they be utterly dead to God? They still sin, but there is certainly a spark of good in them and some power to choose good (by nature). In Romans 2, Paul teaches that God is no respecter of persons (v. 11), but rewards each according to their deeds (v. 6). He teaches that the goodness of God leads to repentance (v. 4), but a hard heart (human will) stands in the way (v. 5). Eternal life is offered to those who seek for glory through “patient continuance in well doing” (v. 7). Glory and honor are offered to “every man that worketh good” (v. 10), because God is no respecter of persons (v. 11), meaning that he treats us fairly, applying the same standard to all and offering the same salvation to all. These verses to me emphasize human agency and accountability. God would be a respecter of persons if only a pre-chosen group had any chance of salvation.
March 19, 2008 at 8:41 am |
I don’t want to advise incorrectly here, but maybe I can help Gorilladad. Don’t think of this as “election”. Because God is all knowing, he knows the past, present and future, then of course he knew before the existence of man who would ultimately be saved and who would not. I hope this helps.
March 19, 2008 at 5:30 pm |
Gorilladad wrote, “If the law of God, though not preached to them, is nevertheless written in their hearts, how can they be utterly dead to God? They still sin, but there is certainly a spark of good in them and some power to choose good (by nature).”
Respectfully, I disagree with your statement that “there is certainly a spark of good in them and some power to choose good (by nature).” But rather than repeating the contents of a prior posting, I’ll instead point you to Topic #5, in which we addressed these important questions.
Here is a link to it: http://jeffandcindy.wordpress.com/2006/10/04/topic-5-some-free-will-myths/
March 19, 2008 at 5:40 pm |
Will,
God doesn’t save anyone because of something He sees in them. When He decided to save me, He didn’t look down the corridors of time from before the foundations of the earth and see that this person to be born in 1961 was going to be just a little bit better than the rest because when he hears the Gospel he’s going to respond to it….and consequently, because of God’s foreknowledge of my future actions, He decided to elect me.
That isn’t it how God saves people. Indeed, He saw me — and what He saw was a vile sinner, one just as rebellious against God by nature as anyone else with absolutely no inherent desire to turn to Him. Nevertheless, God in effect said, “I want him…as rebellious and vile as he is, as rotten to his core as he is by his sinful nature. I want him.” And as a result, God drew me and saved me in my early 30’s.
And that’s the way He deals with each individual that He’s going to save — according to His own sovereign timetable. Our command is to proclaim the gospel to everyone so that the Holy Spirit will apply it to the hearts of those He is effectually calling.
To those who contiune struggling with the idea of unconditional election thinking it fosters fatalism in terms of our spiritial souls, I have this analogy: If I’m on a sinking ship and the captain has a list of the people who will be saved in the lifeboats, I’m not going to sit in my stateroom while the ship sinks thinking, “Well, if I’m on the captain’s list, someone will come to get me.” On the contrary, I’ll be beseeching the captain, “Please save me! Please let me have a seat on the one of the lifeboats!” In a similar way, if we’re unsure of our salvation, we cannot throw our hands up in the air and say “Oh well, if God elected me, then eventually He’s going to save me. In the meantime, I’ll just live fast and enjoy myself.”
We know that’s not how we’d act in real life if we were destined to perish on a sinking ship — and we shouldn’t act this way when it comes to our soul’s eternal destiny either.
I hope I was able to make myself clear.
March 19, 2008 at 6:34 pm |
Yes Jeff, you made it very clear and I understand that we are all sinners and “As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one:” (Rom 3:10). But as far as beseeching the captain of the ship, are you suggesting that we can beseech God to save us? How can that be? What then does that say of the doctrine of election? If we are one of the elect and we beseech God to save us then we would be saved because God was waiting for us to come to Him with a contrite heart and ask for forgiveness (because it is His will to save us). But if we are NOT one of the elect, then we could not change God’s mind. Am I off base here?
March 19, 2008 at 8:53 pm |
Will, your explanation made some sense to me. That’s actually the only way I can understand that God knows the beginning to the end, so he knows who will respond to the Gospel.
On the sinking ship analogy, I suppose that if God has already chosen the elect, then the captain on the ship might as well be deaf, dumb, and blind, because all of the screaming and pleading we might want to do will have no effect.
There are so many scriptures that speak to agency and judgement, I have a hard time understanding how it could all predetermined. It this life is a testing period as alluded to in 1 Peter 1:6,7:
“That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.”
Why have trials and judgment if everything is predetermined? Anyway, I will check out the other posting on free will myths.
May 9, 2008 at 4:41 pm |
When I dwell on the gospel I like to think of these verses, I hope they encourage everyone.
Romans 1:16…For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Matthew 19:25,26 …who then can be saved? …with men this is impossible but with God all things are possible.
John 6:37…..All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me and the one that comes to me I will certainly not cast out.
1Corinthians 15:1-4 …Now I make known to you, brethren the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the scriptures.
Ephesians 1:13…In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise……
Jesus calls out to his sheep who hear His voice and return to the Shepherd and Guardian of their souls.
Salvation is an act of God, yet men are held responsible to believe.(John 6:29) How can God hold men accountable when He hasnt elected or predestined them to be saved? Romans 9 answers this very question. God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all.
We will never understand this Biblical doctrine but we can know God is perfect and good in all He does and that His ways are far far above our comprehension….GOD IS GOOD WE MUST TRUST IN THIS AND KNOW HIS WAYS ARE ABSOLUTELY PERFECT. We were created from the dust.
Knowing I am a child of God and one of the sheep who has heard the Saviors voice calling me to Himself produces a profound attitude of thankfulness and humility.
May 9, 2008 at 11:54 pm |
I think the question should be – How can God hold men aaccountable if he has predestined them? If man’s destiny is predetermined, there is no test or trial and therefore no accountability.
May 11, 2008 at 10:43 pm |
Thank you Joseph, very encouraging and enlightening for me.