The topic for this unseasonably mild Winter day is one that unfortunately too many people are familiar with. In many of today’s churches there’s a gospel being preached which couldn’t stir the wind in a tornado. That gospel is what I’ll call the “Inoffensive Gospel”. It won’t arouse any feeling or give offense to anyone under its teachings. It’ s a commonplace, bland, milk & water gospel which produces no fruit. A person can sit under its teachings and never be offended or provoked in their spirit.
Let me clarify the difference between this “Inoffensive Gospel” and the true Gospel of the Bible. The true Gospel of the Bible produces fruit because it delivers the entire counsel of God. The inoffensive gospel so muddies and clouds the true Gospel message that it is all but absent from today’s congregations. The unsaved members might as well walk around carrying their tombstones about their necks because the message they’re hearing is a dead one that won’t lead anyone to salvation. In the early NT church the true gospel spread throughout the Roman Empire with such fury that it seemed wherever the early Christians went the town went into an uproar:
Acts 17:6 – And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also
Acts 19:29 — And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul’s companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre.
Acts 16:20 — And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,
1 Th 2:2 — But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.
Unfortunately, today we’re never sure what type of gospel we’re going to hear. The reality is that Satan is loose and he’s infecting our churches and turning them upside down. Below are some ways in which you might identify this so-called inoffensive gospel. If any of these situations are present in your church, then you have become a hearer or perhaps even a preacher of this inoffensive gospel (IG).
1. Very Little Scripture
One of the tenets of the IG is that the sermon contains a very low amount of Scripture and typically when Scripture is quoted it is on a subject like love. Of course, the type of love generally taught is “Don’t offend the unbeliever.” A church embracing the IG will always have a minimal amount of Scripture expounded or even mentioned.
2. Twisted Scripture
Pastors preaching the IG will use a verse and then twist it to skew its meaning toward their sermon — whether it is correct or not! Those who are good at twisting Scriptures normally have no idea what the verses mean so they turn it into a social cause. Scripture twisting changes the nature of the gospel from a salvific gospel to a worldly one.
3. Story Time in the Sanctuary
Everybody loves a good story. But when the sermon is nothing more than an entertaining story, then it is a failure. Stories are good if they are illustrations; however, when that story is used for the whole sermon, it shows the pastor’s inability to apply Scripture to life.
4. No Challenge in the Message
The IG message is worthless dribble. Today’s IG pastors refuse to challenge their flock and the result is a church full of spiritual dolts. The message is supposed to challenge our spiritual lives, not be a verbal message lulling us to sleep.
5. You’re Hearing the same Message you did a year ago
Does your pastor’s message ever change? How many different subjects does he preach about in a year? Many preachers have a fixation on a particular subject (like love) and never leave its track to edify the congregation on other equally important topics (like judgement or Hell).
6. You Haven’t Grown
Are you spiritually stagnant? Are you still at the same spiritual plateau you were a year ago? If you’re in a church which embraces an inoffensive gospel, you’ll never grow in the faith. But remember: as a Christian you have the responsibility to study the Bible outside of church. Unfortunately, if you’re receiving spiritual pabulum from the pulpit, it won’t spark any further interest in your spiritual growth.
7. The Congregants Agree with the Pastor
Here’s how you can tell whether you’re in a church with an insipid gospel: the preacher teaches a dead gospel and yet everyone in the congregation agrees with him. Of course, if you raise a question or challenge him, you’re the one who will be berated for Christian convictions.
8. The Sermons are Always Positive
Acts 20:27 – For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
IG sermons are always positive and only geared toward the positive. Let us never mention Hell, damnation, judgment or other terms which could upset the good people in the pews. After all, aren’t they doing little league or PTA — how much more does God expect? There is nothing positive about the world system. The IG preacher keeps his flock in the dark about truth. Their goal seems to be to have a congregation full of smiles. Later, when a member of their flock is rolled down the aisle in his casket, the pastor can assure the people that the deceased is in heaven because of all the good he did.
Final Comments
The inoffensive gospel is a deadly gospel. If you’re in a church that consistently preaches this inoffensive gospel, then you cannot and will not grow. Don’t stay there under the mistaken impression that you can make a difference. You belong with other believers of like mind so you can begin to grow. God does not want to hear things like, “Well, my Grandfather went here and my Father went here.” We are commanded to separate ourselves.
2 Cor 6:17 — Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you
Have you ever come under the hearing or preaching of the Inoffensive gospel? Do you think IGs are dangerous? Let us know.
To God Be The Glory!
January 7, 2008 at 10:45 pm |
There are so many churches today like this. It’s very sad.
January 23, 2008 at 10:45 pm |
Greetings again in Christ! Thought I’d explore more of your blog (as you exhort) instead of just dwelling in “#61″. Sounds like what you’re describing here is what is commonly called the “seeker sensitive” gospel- low on offense,high caloric content of pablum. I whole heartily agree with your assessment. It’s (IG) insidious.
January 24, 2008 at 5:00 pm |
Victoria & Senecus,
Thanks for your comments . Yes, it is refreshing to have visitors comment on topics other than #61,
Thanks for sharing about the IG — it is indeed deadly.
In Christ,
Jeff & Cindy
November 12, 2008 at 6:12 pm |
Composed sat., 11-8-’08
JOHN 3:16…
FOR GOD SO LOVED ABRAHAMS FAMILY, THAT HE GAVE THE PROMISED SEED CHRIST, AND BELIEF IN HIM, SO THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE.
loncrawley@bellsouth.net
November 12, 2008 at 10:36 pm |
Wow, with that kind of interperative license, the Bible could be made to teach anything.
November 13, 2008 at 7:05 pm |
Well Dude,
I’m at a total loss.
The hour is 6:20P.M. 11-13-08. I’ve been typing a response to your observation for over six hours, and was on the next to the last line when two incoming e-mails signaled their arrival, the screen flickered, and six plus hours of work disappeared.
Obviously, if there was that much to be said on the subject of Jn.3:16, there is more to be considered than a superfluous restart could do justice to tonight. You’ll note I included my e-mail address, and if you felt comfortable sending me yours I could zap you a copy of the original explanations for the composition that has befuddled you.
What a loss. There was so much additional text added, and scripture references included than in the original.
Oh well, I’ll make the same offer to anyone else who’d like an immediate look-see at the supporting information. In the meantime, I’ll consider restarting the body of the text later this evening, or perhaps tomorrow. In the meantime you may take the time to look up the word “subset” and “set”when the latter is used as a noun.
The time would be well spent in refreshing yourself concerning God’s covenant with Abraham in Genesis chapters 12 &15. The issue is the fact that Abraham was used as a representation of the principle of “Justification by faith alone.” Here in the Old Testament we have the prophecy, and many centuries later Paul reveals its fulfillment in Gal. chapter 3. There are only 29 verses in Gal.3, and to read them all would be best, but if pushed for time, then the last four verses for sure…26-29, and verse 29 especially.
That’s enough of a hint to establish a foundation, and…the Lord willing, I’ll try to re-elaborate the thirty-five years of information to be brought to bear on the subject…tomorrow?
Bless you, Dude. The Lord seems to have used you to arouse matters of considerable significance.
May His glory and mens edification be our only desire.
Lon
November 15, 2008 at 12:39 am |
Well, I just think that your posting on the “This Sinner’s Testimony” page is a better rewording of the scripture, if you must reword it.
November 17, 2008 at 5:42 pm |
JOHN 3:16 AS COMPOSED NOVEMBER 8, 2008
FOR GOD SO LOVED ABRAHAMS FAMILY,
THAT HE GAVE THE PROMISED SEED CHRIST,
AND BELIEF IN HIM,
SO THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH,
HAVING EVERLASTING LIFE.
THE PARAPHRASING OF JOHN 3:16 ISN’T INTERPRETIVE LICENSE, AS CHARGED, BUT EXEGESIS…”RIGHTLY DIVIDING.”
It is not forcing the text to say what one wants it to say, but rather bringing the full weight of scripture (tenor) to bear on any given passage under consideration, for all scripture points in the same direction despite contentions of literalist and Arminians to the contrary. The former (literalism) is an errant attempt at interpretation. Two examples: 1. The gospel transmitted in FM is not retrievable on an AM receiver. 2. Figures of speech, in which the Bible is profusely transmitted, interpreted literally produce absurd, illogical conclusions. The latter (Arminianism) is an “Other Gospel” (works salvation). Let him who brings it “be accursed” (Gal.1:8&9). There is not a single Arminian verse in the entire Bible.
Apologies to all for this exhaustive exposition of JOHN 3:16 at this site. The precepts discussed herein are so important to a basic, understanding of what Christianity IS and IS NOT, that I’m going to risk impropriety for the greater good.
Perhaps Jeff and Cindy will appreciate this much…”To God Be The Glory!” Amen.
The very essence of gospel revelation is beautifully and concisely expressed in this masterpiece of the poets art.
No single verse of scripture was intended to, nor does any contain, the entirety of God’s plan of salvation…but this one verse, properly perceived, is a veritable overview of thousands of years of God’s revelation of himself and his plan to redeem fallen and lost mankind.
There is probably no more familiar verse in scripture, nor is any more likely misunderstood.
WHAT JOHN 3:16 IS NOT: It is not an offer made to all mankind to, by an act of human will, enter into a covenant with Christ as Co-Savior. Dead men function not at all until GIVEN life, therefore REPENTANCE (a work) FOLLOWS salvation. Only after one realizes he, by God’s grace, is ALREADY ALIVE spiritually, does he see the worth and need of repentance. It is, in effect, doing what the Samaritan leper (of all people) did at Luke 17:11-19 “When he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God.”
HOW ARE WE SAVED? The same way the ten lepers were healed. And did they, at some preachers direction, pray some non-Biblical “sinners prayer?” Worse yet, did they “accept” Jesus? God forbid! The pot does not accept the potter. Pick up your Bible and read it for yourself. At verses 12 and 13 they “stood afar off”, and said, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.” Six simple words of supplication.
A similar illustration of supplication is found at Mark10:46-52 with Bartimaeus where we read: “And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me. 48. And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried out the more a great deal, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.”
Here I sit trembling and weeping…again…as I so often do as I see myself in that poor mans plaintive plea. Do you see yourself as God sees you? I used to think God was at least a little pleased with what I thought I had accomplished with Jesus’ help. No more! I’m a worm, and no man. A dog begging scraps from the Masters table, and I’m blessed beyound measure to know it.
Herein we also have a reiteration of the principle taught at Isa. 6:13; Amos 5:3; Zech.13:8&9; 1Pe.3:20; Mt.7:14, that something approximating 10 to 33% of mankind will be counted as the ELECT.
There were, low estimate, two million Jews in Israel in Elijah’s day. He was told that seven thousand of their number were holy in God’s sight. Divide 7,000 into two million and you get something like one (1) out of 285-287 or so Jews were saved at that time. 1 out of 287! That, no doubt, is why Isaiah lamented at 1:9 that: “Except the Lord of hosts had left us a VERY SMALL REMNANT, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.”
Death, unless resurrected, ever continues to be quite satisfied with itself (as was Lazarus, and even Jesus in the toomb. Ditto Adam at Gen.2:7), and seeks not after God and his righteousness. Until the Hound of Heaven trees a man he remains oblivious to his need, and is in fact, the very enemy of God. Better put…God is his enemy, and man is a lost cause.
“Behold your God!” (Isa.40:9). We are instructed to look to Him. He’s not “up there” looking us over for the best sinners going. Wouldn’t that be a fine lot with which to be thrown into eternity? He requires dead sinners, not recycled or refurbished, self-righteous religionist. He created us…He needs no assist on our part in remaking us.
We are either dead in Adam or alive in Christ; we’re not back and forth between the two. Either state is permanent save for the intervention of God alone. The Devil is not a creator, but a created being like ourselves, and lacks the ability to thwart God’s purpose.
Salvation is not a second, third or forth chance to “Do Better.” It is acquittal. We’ll be as guilty the day we die as we were yesterday,… but acquitted. THAT is mercy and grace…”not of works, lest any man should boast.” Can you see the overwhelming stimulus therein to praise (speak well of) “…The glory of his grace?”(Eph.1:6). Freedom from the law…freedom from religion…regenerated to newness of life by Holy Spirit! Praise (speak well of) God! Y’all hear me Jeff and Cindy? Amen?
WHAT JOHN 3:16 IS: It is a poetically beautiful verse of “Assurance” of salvation to those “elect” ONLY whom GOD HAS CHOSEN to make up his eternal adopted family (Rom9:4; Gal4:5; Eph1:5). Adoptive parents visiting an orphanage chose the child, not vice versa.
It is not in our jurisdiction to question God’s justice in saving some, and not all. God does all things well, and it is enough for us to thus acquiesce to Him as did His Son in similar matters: “…Even so Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight” (Lu10:21).
At this point I begin to get the Heebie Jeebies that if I don’t go ahead and submit my observations to this point, I run the risk of losing the investment expended, as when six hours of painstaking effort went down the tube last Thursday.
Please continue reading once I finish at least another section, for we have not even begun to get into the substance of the paticular elements of John 3:16.
To be continued…
November 19, 2008 at 5:52 pm |
JOHN 3:16 Continued (part B) of “comment” dated November 17, ‘08; 5:42PM
SET: “A group of persons or things of the same kind or having a common characteristic usually classed together.”
SUBSET: “A set each of whose elements is an element of an inclusive set.”
“God uses the word “all” in two ways: First, to show the completeness of what is in view (when all is all); secondly, to show a completeness within a particular SUBSET (when all is not all). Here is an example of that
The news comes on and reports that an airliner crashed in New York City and all were killed. Who was killed? Those on the airliner or all those in New York city? CAN YOU SEE THE PRINCIPLE OF COMPLETENESS WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF A PARTICULAR SUBSET? The inhabitants of the plane were killed but not everyone in New York City. The same CAREFUL METHODS OF APPLICATION must be applied to Biblical interpretation; otherwise, we come to incorrect conclusions. The UNFORTUNATE REALITY is that MANY Christians NEGLECT THIS METHOD OF INTERPRETATION.”
(These last two paragraphs are quoted from an excellent posting here at Jeff and Cindy’s under the title: “New Topic: The Timing of the Rapture” Nov.,2, 2008. When printed it’s 31 pages in lgth. These quotes are taken from pages 20-22 under the title: “ALL” – What does it mean in the New Testament?” dated March 16, 2008.
Pages 18&19, “The ‘Offer’ of the gospel” are of equal value to serious, OBJECTIVE seekers after truth, not burdened by preconceptions or suppositions. Those seeking growth unto a “perfect” (mature) man will be rewarded for their investigation.)
ABRAHAM is employed as a symbol and allegory of “Justification by faith, or grace alone.” A like allegory is sited at Gal.4:22-27 (to validate the employment of “figures of speech” for literalists). Justification, or salvation, means: still guilty, but acquitted. Grace and faith are both free gifts; His to us, not ours to him. We do not produce Belief or Faith, he does.
ABRAHAMS FAMILY is of two natures. The spiritual minority (holy seed or essence) is a SUBSET within the PRIMARY SET WHICH IS national Israel.
The law, and the nation to which it was given, were TEMPORARY external representations of God’s kingdom on earth UNTIL THE SEED SHOULD COME, TO WHOM THE PROMISE WAS MADE (Gal,3:19). At that point in history Christ became the fulfillment of the law(Mt.5:17), and the political nation of Israel came to an end.
God said at Jer.31:35-37 that if Israel ever ceased to be a nation, the sun, moon and stars would also cease to do what they do regularly. Did Israel ever cease to be a political nation on earth. Yes. Did the sun, moon and stars cease to shine and orbit? No. Either God goofed, or he was refering to the SUBSET (holy seed) that was the essential and complete “nation” and family of Abraham within the principle SET…national Israel.
The promise, ultimately, was to Christ, THROUGH Abraham (Gal.3:19&29). STOP WHAT YOU’RE DOING RIGHT THIS MINUTE, AND LOOK THOSE TWO SCRIPTURES IN GALATIANS UP, AS WELL AS THE REF. TO JER. ABOVE. The subject in view was always eventual atonement in the Messiah, SYMBOLIZED by his providential care (oversight) of a temporary visible national kingdom.
National Israels history was acted out on earth’s “stage” to physically illustrate, temporarily, the more significant lesson being taught concerning spiritual reality in the eternal realm of God’s heavenly kingdom. This whole earthly practice, or scrimmage, to borrow a football term, is but a warm up exercise for eternal life with the, non-create, non-material Spirit God (Jn.4:2).
National, genetic Israel (primary set) served its purpose as a visible illustration of God’s reality and nature to an errant mankind, and like a booster rocket was jettisoned, as planned, while the spiritual SUBSET “Israel” rocketed on (progressive revelation, not replacement theology) with “ALL” global “Israel” on board to join the holy angels in their orbit of the throne of God in heaven(Isa.6).
I found the following definition in an antique set of encyclopedia in Augusta, Ga over a decade ago, and keep a copy in my billfold:
“ATTRITION: A medieval theological term. The true CONTRITION of the sinner is held to be a detestation of sin arising out of sorrow because the love of God has been offended. If the penitent is moved by another and less exalted impulse, such as fear of hell, or sense of the heinousness of guilt, his contrition is held to be imperfect and is described as ATTRITION.”
Now, fear (dread or terror) is an inferior motive for ones relationship to God. THAT is what God laid on Old Testament Israel under the TEMPORARY(Gal3:19&29) educational tool of the law, and it was hard to be borne.
A schoolmaster is not a savior. “His” purpose was to use the GUILT the law produces to show us our need of CHRISTas OUR SAVIOR… not our assistant. No rule, law or commandment produces life through a man’s obedience to it, it only produces death because to break one is to be guilty of all, and that condemns us all (JAMES 2:10). WE NEED A SAVIOR, NOT AS ASSISTANT! Remember the fellow who touched the Ark of the Covenant, and thereby “Bought the Farm”(1Chron.13:9&10)?
God, rather than destroying all mankind, and deservedly so, determined to train mankind in stages…again, progressive revelation, not substitutional theology. He taught our fathers his righteousness and justice via legal writ. It did not abridge the original covenant with Abraham regarding “Justification (salvation) by Faith, or Grace alone (Gal.3:17).
There was not a period, in there somewhere, where the Jews, personally or nationally, were eternally justified by law keeping, or obedience, as Arminians stress. “If there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law (Gal.3:21). Let me add…nor does obedience to rules contribute to assisting the SOVEREIGN work of Christ in his obtaining our salvation FOR US.
This is such fantastically GOOD NEWS, but it robs men of their dignity and boast, and they’ll have none of it. Man’s ways are not Gods. Men are plagued by worldly, carnal values. If you don’t recognize in your sinful self the fact that you’d eventually be proud of your choice of God, if such a thing were possible, then you don’t even know yourself very well, much less others…and forget the Bible, you’ll never comprehend it with that fantastic view of your imagined self generated “humility.”
Now, God got sick and tired of men obeying rules by the letter of the law while lusting after their own carnal desires in their hearts. Legal, fearful obedience to commands doth not an intimate relationship produce. He opted to put his laws in mens hearts, thus giving them a conscience for the first time in history.
The word “conscience” does not appear in the Old Testament at all, but 32 times in the New including its plural form, and that for the first time at John 8:9. Holy Spirit thrown into the mix to prod men’s consciences, and you’ve got the New Testament era wherein regenerate men are not only not UNDER the law…they’re ABOVE it…FOR GOD’S SAKE! The motive of love, and the inner disdain to offend the love of God who died for them produces that Walton’s Mountain, Mayberry Family Relationship that God shot for from before there was a world…when he wrote the names of his eternal family in the palm of his hand. What did I have to do with that?
N-O-T-H-I-N-G…Thank Almighty God!
I AM A GENTILE CITIZEN OF:
THE UNITED STATES OF ISRAEL
IN CHRIST, ISRAEL FINDS HER JEWISHNESS.
CHRIST WAS THE ULTIMATE PROMISE TO ABRAHAM.
ISA. 65:15…”AND YE SHALL LEAVE YOUR NAME (Jews, or Israel) FOR A CURSE UNTO MY CHOSEN: FOR THE LORD GOD SHALL SLAY THEE, AND CALL HIS SERVANTS BY ANOTHER NAME” (That’s prophecy).
ACTS 11:26…”…AND THE DISCIPLES (Jewish) WERE CALLED “CHRISTIANS” FIRST IN ANTIOCH” (That’s fulfillment).
ANY NATION ON EARTH WHERE THERE IS A CHRISTIAN…IS ISRAEL!
GENETIC JEWS W/O CHRIST ARE BECOME SPIRITUAL GENTILES (UNCLEAN).
GENTILES WITH CHRIST ARE BECOME…SPIRITUAL JEWS!
TO GOD BE THE GLORY!….AMEN.
To be continued…The Lord willing.
November 19, 2008 at 8:26 pm |
May I invite one and all to visit the companion site to this one where Dude, Will and I have a back and forth begun that I’m sure we all hope will edify our fellows and further glorify the magnificent God of glory (Eph.1:6; Isa.40:9)
As my best friend used to say before his translation:
“The best way to glorify the Father, is to lift up the Son.”
Clarke Curtis
To get to the companion site mentioned go back near the top of this page and click on: “This Sinners Testimony” (A great article in itself) if that title appears in any of the “Comments” window. If not, then click on January 2008 and scroll to the end of that article, before “The Inoffensive Gospel” begins. Click on “Comments” in blue lettering, and join in, will you?
Thank you, Father. Thank you, Lord Jesus. Holy Spirit…Thanks! All praise to the Great One In Three…Mystery beyond comprehension, but effective beyond measure.
November 20, 2008 at 12:03 am |
Lonnie,
I’ll spend more time going through your writings , but I have to take a moment to comment on one part because it illustrates a point that continually fascinates me. When I read the passages in Luke 17, I see ten lepers who, through the light of Christ that all men have recognized Christ as the savior. They were all healed, but even so only one praised God to which the Lord said “thy faith hath made thee whole”. Some will accept Christ’s saving grace and some don’t. Some bear fruit some don’t. In the end, we will all be judged according to our works.
I’m reading the same scriptures you are, as well as the same scriptures in the rest of the Bible, and see an entireley different meaning.
November 20, 2008 at 12:48 am |
I don’t understand the origin of metaphorical references such as “a dog begging scraps”. Yes, of course, we are far far inferior and subservient to the master, but a dog? The feeling that gives me just doesn’t fit with scriptures like Romans 8:16,17:
16 The Spirit itself beareth awitness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Or Acts 17:28,29 :
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
November 20, 2008 at 10:26 am |
I personally don’t like to paraphrase or add to God’s Word. I’ll leave the wording as it is in the KJV — but I will offer the following unique way of presenting John 3:16…
G od so loved the world that He gave His
O nly begotten
S on that whosoever believeth in Him shall not
P erish but have
E verlasting
L ife
John 3:16 not only spiritually but literally spells out the gospel for the world. Jeff
November 23, 2008 at 1:50 am |
JOHN 3:16 Continued (part C) of “comment” dated November 17, 2008; 5:42 P.M.
For context, let me return to the doctrinal documentation from which I veered in part B by repeating the last eight sentences of my text before part B took on a life of its own.
1. ABRAHAM is employed as a symbol and allegory of “Justification by faith, or grace alone.” A like allegory is sited at Gal.4:22-27 (to validate the employment of “figures of speech” for literalists). Justification, or SALVATION MEANS: still guilty, but ACQUITTED. Grace and faith are both free gifts; his to us, not ours to him. We do not produce belief, he does (Jn.6:28&29; Gal.5:22).
2. ABRAHAMS FAMILY is of two natures. The spiritual minority (holy seed or essence) is a SUBSET within the PRIMARY SET WHICH IS…NATIONAL ISRAEL.
The law, and the nation to which it was given, were TEMPORARY external representations of God’s kingdom on earth UNTIL THE SEED SHOULD COME, TO WHOM THE PROMISE WAS MADE (Gal.3:19). The promise, ultimately, was to Christ, THROUGH Abraham. The subject in view was always eventual atonement in the Messiah, symbolized by his providential care of a temporary visible national kingdom.
National Israel was the first stage of a progressive revelation culminating in the New Testament community. Those national citizens outside the holy remnant subset, were still legally religious external representatives, though not personally eternally saved. They only equate to the tares within the eventual Christian community, which are cast away.
3. THE PROMISED SEED CHRIST fulfilled both the law and the nations prophets in his person (Mt.5:17). He was what the law and the prophets were all about, and it was HE TO WHOM THEY POINTED as their essence and fulfillment (Luke24:27).
4. WHOSOEVER. Only the predestined (Rom.8:29&30) can, or even have the possibility of eternal life. They are that SUBSET referred to at Isa.6:13, being a complete unit (the treasure, or meat) in themselves within the outer shell of mere religious show (tares, or foolish “virgins”). See: John6:37,44; Mt.11:27).
5. BELIEF AND FAITH must likewise be properly understood. These are EFFECTS, not CAUSES of salvation. These are the Alpha AND Omega works of God in our salvation, not mans; His gift to the ELECT, not theirs to him (Gal5:22; John6:28&29).
He is Omega also, and shares not his glory.
As good an example as comes to mind at the moment is, as just mentioned: Jn.28&29. Jesus is confronted…again, with the same old humanistic mindset. “What must WE do to work the works of GOD?”, and they toss the word “works” around in the plural. With the patience of a father with unseasoned, but eager kids, he sets Paul an example for the repeat proposition yet to arise in Galatians one. CHRIST HERE REFERS TO GOD’S WORK (singular) AS GOD’S ALONE TO DO. The issue is BELIEF, and christ tells them, as in a similar situation at MATTHEW 22:29…”YE DO ERR, NOT KNOWING THE SCRIPTURES, NOR THE POWER OF GOD.” At Mk.12:27 Jesus says: “Ye do GREATLY err.” Belief is God’s gift and work to give to them, not theirs to generate out of their own wickedness.
Imagine your three year old son running up to you after you’ve had a hard days work, and eagerly inquiring what he can do to do your work for you tomorrow.
At another point someone asks…a-g-a-i-n, “What GOOD THING shall (“I”) do?”…(thinking himaelf to have some goodness to spare, you understand.) Christ’s response was: “With men this is IMPOSSIBLE” (Mt.19:16, 25&26). The point is…”Belief”, as is “Faith” (Gal.5:22; 2Pe.1:1), are EFFECTS…not CAUSES of salvation.
Scripture leads us to understand that invisible treasures of character; love, joy, peace, the Beattitudes etc. are more important than physical things, even our bodies (Gal5:22; 2Cor.4:18; Mt.5:4-13, 6:24-34;10:28; 2Cor.5:8; Phil.3:21; James4:14)
Concerning the PHYSICAL ILLUSTRATION OF A SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE…What did Adam, Lazarus or Christ himself have to “Believe” or have “Faith” in as a dead corpse in order to be regenerated to physical life? (Gen.2:7; Jn.11:43&44; Lu.24:5&6). Absolutely nothing. Ditto with our resurrection from death in Adam.
At Gal. 5:22 faith is the fruit, or result, of the Holy Spirit which WE WERE GIVEN when he bestowed the ACT (not, process) OF SALVATION on us at 2Thes.2:13. 2Pe1:1 beautifully informs us that FAITH IS something we obtained as A GIFT ON THE MERIT of the righteousness OF THE FATHER AND SON, not we ourselves. We don’t produce it, he does. It’s not our gift to him, but his to us.
6. EVERLASTING LIFE results from resurrection, being Born Again, spiritually from death in Adam. Thus DEAD TO SIN, hell’s no option forevermore (Rom.6:2,7; Rev.20:6&14).
7. LIMITED ATONEMENT: Abraham’s Seed, Jesus, died for the entire SUBSET without DISTINCTION (Jew and Gentile alike), not without EXCEPTION. That’s LIMITED ATONEMENT. He’d neither pray for nor die for the nonelect (Jn.17:9; Gal3:28). Foreknowledge automatically exempts atonement for goats. There’d be no purpose. He’d not have even come to earth for a pasture of goats…nor did he pray for…nor did he atone for…goats.
8. WORLD: The use of the word “world” is frequently misunderstood. The men through whom God wrote the New Testament were very aware that the common misconception of that day was that only citizens of National Israel were chosen of God. When Holy Spirit began coming upon the Gentiles, and Paul was set apart unto the Gentiles ministry, it was realized God had gone global with the plan of salvation, hence the employment of the word “World” here and elsewhere (Isa.42:6; 49:6; Mt.4:15&16). That doesn’t mean that everyone, everywhere was potentially redeemable by God’s will, but that in each nation, tongue and tribe, Israel included, there were some ELECT of God; probably about 10% as was the case among the Jews at Isa.6:13. The plan was universal in scope from its conception (Isa.42:6, 49:6; Mt.4:14-16). “For God so loved the “WORLD”, right? These universally assembled masses would make up the New Testament church for nearly two thousand years, and the universal, spiritual, noninstitutional church during the present Falling Away from the truth…The Great Tribulation (2Tim.4:3&4; Mt.24:15&16; Ps.121:1, 123:1= the mountains or hills representing Christ; Eze.11:14-16; Jude 4; Rev.13:7, 18:4, 20:9).
“FOR GOD “SO”: So is a conjunction which ties Jn.3:16 to verses 14&15, meaning: “In this fashion, or to this degree”; refering to Calvary). For God so loved the ‘world’, beyond the boundries of geographic, genetic “Israel.” Not everybody in every country…not “universalism”, but the SUBSET within the PRIMARY SET: Global “Israel.” Therefore, or in like manner, the coming in of the Gentiles IS the saving of ALL “Israel”,…AND THEN COMETH THE END! (1Cor.15:24).
Ps.73:1…”Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.”
Here we have two references to Israel: The PRIMARY SET (the nation), and the SUBSET (SUCH AS ARE OF A CLEAN HEART). Isaiah assigns the designation10% to the holy seed…the substance thereof. That’s a far cry better than the 7,000 with clean hearts in Elijah’s day. A low population estimate of Israel at that point in their history would be two million. Divide 7,000 into that and you arrive at something like (1) in 285 Jews with clean hearts at the time. One in ten suddenly looks generous, agreed?
Paul is no spiritual dummy, nor is the Christ who revealed these things to him. God set him aside. Here was the man of the hour, imprisoned, while others were out perverting the gospel (Phil.1:15&16). Paul was placed on the back burner, that through enforced solitude he might be blessed with isolation from earthly distractions to meditate on the spiritual depth, height, width etc. of the mind and plan of God in global salvation. Hereby did Paul grasp the universal “Israel” of God. Up to now, God had employed Israel as an external, TEMPORARY (Gal.3:19) symbolic representation of the essential, spiritual kingdom of God on earth. THE MYSTERY (Rom.11:25), now being revealed to Paul in solitary chains is that at history’s juncture with the promised Mediator of the New Testament (Christ Jesus), salvation’s program was designed to shift from national ritualism to global spirituality.
Pauls imprisonment was unto MEDITATION, and that unto REVELATION of the mystery. He isn’t posted as A GUARD at the ‘door-of-understanding’ to prevent mankinds understanding these deeper intentions of God, but contrariwise, Paul is stationed AS AN USHER to introduce mankind to the deep, hidden wisdom of God, CONCEALED from the non-elect IN A figure, or PARABLE.
National, genetic ISRAEL, AND THE LAW, WAS employed by God as A TEMPORARY illustration or historic PARABLE. The revelation of the mystery of Rom.11:25 even takes the global noninstitutional Christian community to our present day in which our consciousness of God’s person, heart and mind employ us as witnesses to his glory and majesty all day, every day. Who needs paganistic, unwarrented Christmass? For us, post his first advent, every day is Sunday, every pot holy (Zech.14:4,20&21).
There is nothing formalistic or ritualistic about essential, mature (perfect) Christianity…and it certainly is not bound or confined within denominationalism, these 500 years after the Protestant Reformation. Surely in these 500 years, he’s grown the elect up, don’t you think? Else, what have these last five centuries been all about?
Step out of religion 101’s weekly public formalistic ritual and administrative bickering, and into the glorious realm of his Omnipresence (everywhere present), majesty and “Behold your God” (Isa.40:9; Eph.1:6). Cast off constraining religious form and go universal and spiritual…for that is what he has brought us to in this “hour” of history. Rejoice ye children of the most high God! Praise honor and glory to him who loved us, and gave himself for us!
Feeling disenfranchised? Don’t worry, Christ awaits you in the “hills” of your closet or study to which he instructs you to flee, here at the end, and from which he sends you to witness. The witness in the market place, over the phone or internet or on the street will be found to be deeper, generally, than the formalized, regulated brevity the institution has afforded in many a long year. You may well be pleasantly surprised just how close up and personal your relationship to Christ and your fellows just might become, absent the maddening religious activity of institutionalized religion. You just may also find amazing differences between what was taught there and what the Bible actually teaches. “Try it; You’ll like it!” Christ commands it (Mt.24:15&16; Rev.18:4).
The sentimental, humanistic rationale has been presented, without scriptural authority, that God would not offer everybody something that most of them had no chance of having.
The gospel is not “offered” to men for them to accept. It is “preached”, and his sheep both hear and follow him (Jn.10:27).
MAGNETISM AND THE REDEEMED ELECT
He is holy, we are not.
Opposite poles of the magnet.
In intimate proximity
a natural reaction occurs.
It is
an instantaneous, immediate,
natural reaction…
devoid of any cognition or opinion
on the part of the magnets.
All that the Father GIVETH me SHALL come to me…
(John6:37)
My sheep HEAR my voice,…AND they FOLLOW me.
(John10:27)
The morning these thoughts “Of Magnets and Sheep” came to me, I was having breakfast at a local restaurant. The waitress, who was coming to grips with the concept of “The Elect” asked me if I could explain or illustrate the concept. Having just printed these thoughts at 2:30AM, I gave her this illustration and these scriptures. To me this is an ideal representation of the Elect and their relationship to the good Shepherd.
Think on this one: “He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.” (John 8:47). Elder Sonny Pyles of the Primative Baptist Church observed that Christ does not say that IF they will hear, they can become God’s, but rather they do not hear BECAUSE they are not God’s.
There is effectively no difference between the nonelect and the unredeemed elect, before their redemption. A president elect is not president until he is inaugurated, nor is the elect saved until he is redeemed by Holy Spirit, not some act of his own fallen will. The verse above could be talking to both groups before the elect are called and redeemed. Thank God for the imperative “shall” at John 6:37! Blessed assurance.
See the tie to J0HN 3:16?
Having now defined some basic Bible doctrinal precepts as foundational for the proper understanding of John 3:16, let us proceed to endeavor to decipher the mind and heart of God in this 25 word masterpiece of the poets art…John3:16.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved Abraham’s family, that he gave the promised seed christ, and belief in him, so they shall never perish, having everlasting life.
(John 3:16 completed 2:30 P.M.; Mon., Nov. 10, 2008)
I can hardly contain the joy I’ve experienced after years of going head to head with Arminians who have wrested this verse from the vaults of the Reformation, and deceived untold millions with their “other gospel”, Pharisaic, freewill, universalistic interpretation of its true message of assurance to the elect of Almighty God.
The pot does not choose the potter.
Many hours have been spent writing, shifting text, deleting etc., etc. and when, this afternoon, I counted for the umpsteenth time and had exactly 25 words in the rendering of the Bibles most misunderstood verse, I knew the blessing had been bestowed. To God be all praise, honor and glory, and to men this prayer for edification, joy, peace and fellowship.
I’d like to recommend three important books for serious Bible students:
1. “The Five Points of Calvinism” – Defined, Defended, and Documented
by: David N. Steele; Curtis C. Thomas; S. Lance Quinn
R&R Publishing; ISBN 0-87552-827-9
2. “The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination”
by: Loraine Boettner
R&R Publishing; ISBN 0-87552-112-6
3. “No Place for Sovereignty – What’s Wrong With Freewill Theism”
by: R.K. McGregor Wright
InterVarsity Press; ISBN 0-8308-1881-2
One other would represent time well spent. Copies are still available on the internet.
4. “The Liberated Palestinian…The Anis Shorrosh Story”
by: James and Marti Hefley Foreword by Adrian Rogers
Victor Books a division of SP Publications, Inc.; Wheaton, Illinois 60187
November 24, 2008 at 1:47 am |
So, let me get this straight. God so loved the world that he predetermined that he would throw 90% of his own offspring into eternal torment, regardless of what they might do in mortality. And, this concept brings you great joy.
November 24, 2008 at 10:25 am |
dude,
God is not “throwing” anyone into eternal torment. If that 90% (if that’s accurate) has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ but they REJECT it, and want no part of it, then what? What more do you want God to do? He has already given us His Son as our Savior to put all of our sins aside and forgive us but some of us hearing it, do not want it or don’t believe it.
November 24, 2008 at 5:11 pm |
I find myself reflecting on the infinite price it cost our LORD to save even one person.
We have sinned against a holy God and all of us have earned an eternity forever separated from Him due to our sins. We’ve sent ourselves to hell by our own actions.
Christ is the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world — Luke 11:50; John 17:24; Ephesians 1:4; Hebrews 4:3 and Revelation 13:8 (to cite just a few verses)
To God Be The Glory!
Jeff
November 25, 2008 at 12:50 am |
Will,
I don’t want to seem argumentative. I think I believe much like you do in many areas. However, what I don’t get is all the references to things we should or should not do. Why does it matter, given that all is predestined? How can anyone reject the Gospel? You speak as if that woiuld matter, yet all is predestined and there is nothing we can do that would in any way affect our salvation. I also don’t see how there can be a judgement, because with no power to make choices, there can be no accountability. With no accountability, how can there be judgement? It all really confuses me.
November 25, 2008 at 2:13 am |
GENESIS 6:7… “AND THE LORD SAID, I WILL DESTROY MAN WHOM I HAVE CREATED FROM OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH; BOTH MAN, AND BEAST, AND THE CREEPING THING, AND THE FOWLS OF THE AIR; FOR IT REPENTETH ME THAT I HAVE MADE THEM.”
The concept that brings me great joy is that GOD, oweing salvation to no one, nevertheless, in his sovereign love, mercy and grace, CHOSE to redeem some, and again, Christ acquiesced to his Father’s sovereignty in his choices (Luke10:21b). If it was good enough for the Father and Christ; then mere, sin cursed mortal that I am, . . . therein do I greatly rejoice and offer prolific praise (speak well of), knowing that God does all things well (Mark 7:37).
Whether the final tally of mankinds redemption should be 1/143%, 10% or 33%…that’s a far cry better than the total annihilation God’s decree declared we deserved. The concept of a very small remnant constituting the SUBSET still offends man’s fallen, self-righteous religious morality as much as it did in Moses’ day. The end of that self-righteous morality will, no doubt, be the same as then (1Cor.10:5&6).
Dr. John MacArthur speaks of the unfathomable sadness of that day when the “many” on the left protest to God about all the religious “good” THEY DID in this life, only to hear: “Depart from me, I never knew you” (Mt.7:23). God doesn’t deny that they drank, cussed, chewed and spat less, or even that they helped burned kids for free…He just simply says THAT wasn’t the price to be paid for sin.
Again, memorize “Justice Satisfied”: by C.H. Spurgeon. What or whom satisfies God’s demand for justice? Think, read, study, supplicate, pray and wait on God. His good time is time enough. Not one of the elect shall perish (John 6:37). From John 3:16 and onward, John is just full of God’s assurance to the saints… of HIS own choosing. Hate it if you must…I love it!, even if I’m not one of them, for I know what I am, and what I deserve, and if cast away, then I’ll not protest my merit along with the others in that great and terrible day of the Lord. I deserve hell as much today as I ever have, and shall, untill the Lay-Away is claimed and made perfectly whole.
John MacArthur says he can’t help but be saddened by the realization that the many referred to at (Mt.7:22) are the same many that attempted to enter in via the broad way and wide gate of Arminianism… salvation by works at (Mt.7:13).
The gate is narrow, get it? It’s Christ plus NOTHING! Christ plus us and our legally administered lower sin rate, as a CAUSE, just won’t cut it. One sin excludes, unless acquitted by the mercy and glory of his grace (Eph.1:6) We need a savior, not an assistant. The difference in Christian religion and Christianity is its focus. For the one, it’s themselves; for the other, it’s God in Christ (Isa. 40:9). It gets no simpler than that.
We have a public defender, a court appointed attorney, at the bar of God who HAS never, and WILL never, lose a case. He advocates (1Jn.2:1) on our behalf and just keeps on accepting our spittal in the form of continued sin after redemption, and pleads our case, knowing our frame (Ps.103:14), for the sake of the price HE paid, and to which we can add nothing but insult, still being sinners, but acquitted.
Though we by the gift of our new nature sin far less, now being above, not under law…still the residual sin that besets us afflicts our new conscience, making us daily aware of his ongoing advocacy on our behalf. That makes sin the more abhorred…shows us, daily, our continued need of a savior, and fills us with joy inexpressible that THAT sin was forgiven before it happened. My salvation was not threatened by it, being dead to sins principle since he gave me the gift of EVERLASTING life.
JOHN 3:16…”…God…gave…Christ, and belief in him, so they shall never perish.” It’s His call, not ours. Don’t you just hate his guts for that? If you do, go on out to some bar and get stoned. God’s wrath burns hotter for phony religion than for natural humanism. Better no religion, than one focused on sinful mankind. Total Depravity. Go and learn what that means. “The Five Points of Calvinism” will help anyone begin to unravel the deception of todays church sponsored “DO IT YOURSELF SALVATION”, (freewill versus freegrace).
The seven (perfect number) churches represent all churches, denominations and congregations throughout the New Testament era…The Kingdom Of Christ On Earth. The warnings beginning at Revelation chapter two are directed at the phony religious element of mankind, not the crowd out at The Acme Bar and Grill in the backwoods of the county. They’re a lot better at being what they are than practitioners of churchianity are at “being” Christian.
We don’t “Be” Christians…we either “Are” or aren’t.
From the time eternal life is given to an individual, it’s never in jeopardy…it is eternal, for it is HIS… IMPUTED… or merely declared to be our own, when in reality it is his own essential durative essence (2Pe.1:1). Salvation (physical or spiritual) comes, whether by a life guard at the beach, or Christ, from outside ourselves. Salvation is not an agreement between men and God. We are liars and incapable of holding up our imagined end of ANY deal. It’s a covenant among the Godhead and we are the blessed recipients thereof…IF we’re thus blessed. Otherwise we only get our JUSTdeserts.
I used to chafe at the bumper sticker: “Christians are not perfect…only forgiven.”
My finite, fallen morality does not exceed that of infinite holiness and goodness…even Almighty God. I’ll not bring curse down on myself by so defaming the Father’s judgement in his sovereign selection of the elect.
Rom.5:12… “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon ALL men, for that ALL have sinned.
Man’s contempt that Adams transgression was IMPUTED to themselves in the first place, is abridged by the fact that by the same principle…IMPUTATION (Look it up and memorize its meaning)…Men are “declared” to be made righteous by Christ’s righteousness, not our own, being credited to our bankrupt spiritual accounts (1Cor.15:45-49).
There were TWO ADAMS. read about both of them in the scripture just mentioned.
American capitalist have the hardest time relating to God’s economy. The lack of an earthly king has robbed men of that political example men of other generations have had to help them understand God’s nature…His justice and righteousness as well as his love and mercy. We’ve thus been done a great disservice by democracy. The Kingdom of God is not a democracy. Learn what that means.
Do you realize that God is not human? He’s Spirit (“Be” Attitudes, thoughts, values, character) and even took upon Himself the form of a dove at Christ’s baptism (Mt.3:16) Just what in the name of all that is holy are we worshipping? He calls locust, caterpiller and cankerworms his army (Joel 2:25). Though we hide in the deepest recesses of the earth He’ll command His bee’s to flush us out. You cant beat him…whoever, or whatever he is. I fear him. I greatly fear him, and fortunately, his perfect love, not my own, tempers that fear and instills both hope and…boldness, when he calls for it, but hopefully employed with the love and meekness I so desperately crave for myself. As Paul said: “If I make you sad, who’s going to make me glad” (2Cor.2:2).
I have puzzled over that expression at Luke1:35…”That holy THING which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Strangely, I check the Concordance to find no Greek dictionary ref. # provided.
Id like to minimize this screen and check Matthew Henry’s commentary, or the web itself, but fear I’ll lose these several hours of composition if I leave this sight,
I wonder though, is that reference to Christ’s physical body as a THING…is that implying that God can be anyTHING he chooses to be, and that THAT body was just something employed by the Infinite for an illustration? That’s an interesting precept that, the Lord willing, I’ll have to devote a little time to. It is entirely possible another member of the collective body has insight thereunto that they would share with us.
Remember this, you who love the book of James because you think it teaches Arminianism, and hold Romans emphasis on grace in contempt. The same God wrote them both, and have you considered this? Paul didn’t go to Jerusalem for fourteen years after his conversion (Gal.2:1) to confirm the truth of his gospel with the pillars of the church. Sounds like something Joel Nederhood would hold against Harold Camping, doesn’t it?
Notice at Gal.2:9 that JAMES, Peter and John all extended the right hand of fellowship to Paul, knowing full well that what he was preaching was in total accord with themselves. James was not teaching justification by works and Paul by faith/grace/belief alone.
Read more on this subject of the book of James and presumed justification by works eight (8)paragraphs down which begins: THE COMMON MISCONCEPTION.
Anyone thinking themselves to have ANYTHING whatsoever to do with obtaing or, God forbid, maintaing their salvation have great need to devote considerable time, prayer and meditation to Rom.1:1 through 8:2 at least. Nowhere else in the whole Bible is the plan of salvation made as plainly understood as there.
I said earlier regarding John 3:16 that no single verse of scripture contained the fullness of the gospel, and the first seven plus chapters of Romans is adequate evidence of that fact. There is a tremendous amount of substance in John 3:16’s concise phrasing, but it takes a ton of other scripture to properly understand it…as has been proven, whether any given individual accepts that reality or not.
I said there is not one Arminian verse of Scripture in the whole Bible, and by God’s enabling grace, I meant it!
I don’t know about anyone else, but like men of old, I do exceeding fear and quake at the thought of standing in the presence of holy, almighty God. Until he bids me approach, I lay prostrate on the ground before him. When he bids me rise, and I can no longer stay down, then I see myself rising up on one elbow, and when I am inquired of, by what merit I seek admission into his heavenly kingdom…I will search the throng before me for the face of him whom I’ll know instinctively, and say to the Almighty: “Father, on the basis of the merit of Christ Jesus on my behalf I sue for your merciful consideration.” Oh, the high cost of the free gift! Cost to himself, not to me.
None of this Abba Father stuff for me until I am bidden “arise and approach.” I’ll have to grow into that degree of familiarity. Knowing the terrible sinner myself to be, I stand amazed in the presence of the infinite God of creation. How he would be merciful to my likes reduces me to tears and trembling, and yet, therein is my ONLY HOPE of salvation. Incredible as it is to me…I believe myself to be saved by grace. At least I have HOPE, and that helps me maintain sanity. If I’m cast off,…I richly deserve it. God have mercy on me, a sinner!
Esther knew that, although she was the kings wife, still to barge into the inner court without having been summoned could mean death (Esther 4:11). Do you think that was just thrown in the story to juice it up a little, or do you, as I, suspect it’s a picture of the “terribleness” of presuming upon true Royalty.
Men approached King david with incorrect assumptions that they had something to offer him…and lost their heads for it. As Sinatra sang…”Not for me. Not what I want to be .” Anyone who chooses can just sashay right on up to the Sovereign if they dare, but not me.
The common misconception that Abraham was ‘Eternally Justified or saved” by works (James 2:21) does not take into consideration the different senses in which words have meaning. For instance…Luke 7:29 says men and publicans “justified” God. What!? At Lu.7:35 the principle of wisdom is personified as a woman, and it is said that “her” children “justified” her. WHAT!?
The dictionary leads us to understand that the English word “Justify” in another sense carries the meaning of our actions being reasonable, correct or proper. At Romans 12:1 Paul speaks of our “Reasonable” service in light of whats been done on our behalf. Is any request of God unreasonable in light of his love for us? Abraham didn’t think so.
Our reaction to God in obedience then, should approach in degree the measure of PREVENIENT (look it up) grace and provision shown us. Abraham and his actions are presented to billions of earths inhabitants over millennia as an extreme example for us to shoot for. Aim high! Ones works only “justify” in the sense that they bear witness to a reformed character of which said works bear witness. It’s not unlike: “Honor your father and mother.” You’re not saved thereby, but it is your reasonable service…in God’s opinion. Read more on the book of James and presumed justification by works twelve paragraphs above which begins with: “REMEMBER THIS.”
Concerning the word PREVENIENT again…notice that GOD CHOSE Abraham at Gen.15:1, BEFORE Abrahams RESULTANT gift of “belief” was IMPUTED (James 2:23) to him for righteousness. Remember the correct understanding of John 6:28&29? If not, go back and read the article above on John 3:16. It’s in there somewhere.
Be ye THEREFORE perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect (Mt.5:48). The “Therefore” connects us back to what has just been said regarding loving even our enemies. That is not normal for natural man, and the accomplishment of such supernatural love that allows a saint to be burned at the stake while praising God and blessing ones tormentors, witnesses to the reality of God’s existence indwelling one of the elect who even finds joy in suffering on his behalf. Read Hebrews 11…it is unspeakable for beauty. So we’re not being expected to be perfectly sinless, but again, mature. That’s what perfect refers to in the Bible.
I lived for several years in the lowlands of South Carolina. They have large fields of cantaloupe and watermelon there. At harvest time they have long motorized conveyer belts that traverse said fields, and workers pick the melons and place them on the belt that transports them to a large truck that drives along the edge of the highway. Imagine the scene with melons replaced by firewood and the holy angels as the harvesters. We are the firewood. We’re all dead in sins and trespasses and at the end of the conveyer we drop off into the lake of fire. We’re but cordwood to stoke the fires of hell, and according to our opening scripture we came very close to getting what we deserved.
Now imagine God in Christ walks up to the conveyer and says I’ll take this one and that one for my eternal family. His reasons are his own and too wonderful for my finite
computation. I acquiesce. All of a sudden God doesn’t look like such a bad…dude, does he?
The thought that God sits up there and creates people whom he knows will go to hell, but creates them anyway, misses the point. Many spiritual illustrations do.
Dr. David Jeremiah makes the point that if a sermon represented a sanctuary, then illustrations are the windows that let in the light.
A Mennonite preacher whom I had the pleasure of knowing decades ago, before he was ordained, argued with me recently, from the Arminian position you understand, exactly as others do and as I did for 27 years, that: “Oh, it’s true enough that Christ did some good stuff, BUT…” When you introduce that “BUT” into the equation, you have just “butted” God off the throne and ascended to it yourself. He continued that Christ paid a price, but WE have to apply the blood to our own lives. He went on to say that if we paint with the blood over rust and dirt that things might look fine for a while, but eventually blisters are going to appear, and what we truly are is going to show through.
First of all God doesn’t hire us to paint for him, and especially not with the precious blood of Christ. It is the precise ministry of Holy Spirit to apply Christ’s atonement to the elect…not mans ministry. Again, He is not only Alpha, but Omega as well, and we can all be eternally grateful for that.
SALVATION IS A GOD JOB.
Just because you’ve heard an illustration that sounds good at first…plumb it up with the bible, not your best friends opinion, some church doctrine, or as scripture says…even an angel from heaven. The WORD is our guide, otherwise I might have wound up a Mennonite, but the word kept me through much tribulation of soul for the glory of what you’re reading right now, and that, no thanks to a dog and maggot such as I (Job25:6). The ESV English Standard Version has the first use of the word “worm” in the KJV more nearly correct. Check your Hebrew dictionary for the differences in usage of the word. The first Ref. # is 7415, while the second is 8438. No, God really isn’t that impressed with us. Human social equality is one thing, but don’t you step on his blue suede shoes.
I’ve much to be encouraged about with regard to Arminians who, keep hanging around Reformed (Calvinist) radio stations and websites. The beauty of the doctine that properly focuses on, and glorifies the majesty of God, has a majesty about itself that draws the elect, though they may yet be years from redemption.
It is my prayerful hope that God may restore the years the locust of sin and self have eaten of my own life ,and the decades God invested in my ultimately being entrusted with the light, to shorten the perception time of others who quite likely do not have the years ahead of themselves that I have been given. That would make years of destitution worth it all.
He said Take no thought for what you’ll wear etc, and I took him at his word. Be careful what you pray for.
Paul wanted to go to Rome and he may have lain awake nights contemplating a Carnival weekend Mediterranean cruise. He got there alright, and like myself, he wouldn’t take anything for what he went through… after the fact, but boy, the trials without seeming end over decades are nothing take lightly. I wouldn’t trade places with anybody at this juncture in my life however, and I’m sure Paul feels exactly the same way.
To those who “Don’t Get It” yet, rest assured you never will, with mere education. Until and unless God pulls back the curtain and gives you a glimps into the spiritual realm, there’s not a thing you can do to force his hand.
There is absolutely no need for anyone to despair, for no one knows but what they themselves might have been selected before the world was formed. The very worst sinners of today might well be the saints of tomorrow. Examples of that truth abound.
“He who is forgiven much, loves much”, Jesus said. Often THEY have an easier time seeing their great need than “nice” folks who don’t really think God or anyone else could, or ever would, think of THEM as having anything in common with THEM. Read the parable at Luke 18:10-14 and hope you can ever see the message it was ever intended to convey. Welcome to the mud pit, brother. This is where Christ comes to adopt his eternal family. The great mystery of it all. No merit allowed.
Forgive me for being so long winded, but as Patton said of carnal warfare: “God forgive me, I do love it so.”
All Christians love the sting of battle. The beauty of the Christian Soldiers warfare is that he gets to work for the benefit of mankind, not destroy it.
I’m confident I’m where I am spiritually at this moment in large part due to the continued appeal to the Father on my behalf after my friend was called home. He prayed for me so often herebelow. He died three months before my 27 year stint in Arminianism came to an end, and never obtained the promise, but he saw it afar off (Heb.11). If I should preceed any who presently find themselves where I have come from, know this…I will continue in supplication on your behalf there, as I am blessed to do here and now. Nothing gives me more pleasure. Thanks to all for your intervention on my behalf.
And at long last, nothing remains to be said this evening except: “To God Be The Glory”…to which Jeff and Cindy hopefully reply. . . . “Amen.”
November 25, 2008 at 4:58 pm |
Dude,
You’ve voiced a common objection by many people to unconditional election — that people are just robots and history is just a cosmic computer printout. But that logic would then mean that God is morally responsible for evil.
However, the Bible declares the following: God is not the responsible author of evil; man is a free moral agent who is not forced to sin; we are responsible for what we do; and history is a meaningful and dynamic process.
Now, I freely admit (no pun intended) that I can’t entirely comprehend how man can be a responsible moral agent while God is totally sovereign. But I do know that Isaiah 55:8-9 says “For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” I also know that Romans 11:33 declares “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!”
The sovereignty of God means that there are no real chance happenings. To be sure, from our human perspective, many events appear to be accidental. In Luke 10:31, the parable of the good Samaritan speaks of a certain priest’s coming down a road by chance. Ruth just happened to glean in the field of Boaz in Ruth 2:3.
From our human perspective, the arrow in 1 Kings 22:34 that killed King Ahab was fired at random. Yet the death of King Ahab in that battle had been planned by God and prophesied by God’s prophet.
God is in control of all things, even the fall of a sparrow and the number of hairs on our heads (Matthew 10:29-30). There are no exceptions in Scripture to this rule.
When there are calamities, God is in control (Isaiah 45:7; Ecclesiastes 7:14).
When there are physical handicaps, God is in control (Exodus 4:11).
When evil men come to power, God is in control (Exodus 9:16; 4:21; Romans 9:18).
And when someone believes or rejects the gospel message, God is in control (Acts 13:48; 1 Peter 2:8; Romans 9:16).
Our LORD and Savior is in control of all things…and how we ought to praise Him for that!! I readily admit that the doctrine of election is difficult. God hasn’t answered all our questions. But, as believers, we should respond to this teaching not with haughty curiosity into the unrevealed secrets of God but with a humble gratitude to God for His unmerited favor and mercy. Likewise, non-believers ought to respond to this teaching not with useless worry as to whether their name is on God’s secret list but with a prayerful desire to obey the Gospel command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
May you have a blessed thanksgiving. Jeff
November 26, 2008 at 2:50 pm |
CONCERNING “FREE MORAL AGENCY.”
Kind Sirs,
May a few thoughts on the theme in question, which have brought me great comfort in recent years, be indulged in the spirit of brotherhood. If there should be found herein that which enlightens, glorifies and edifies, then his spirt may be perceived to have moved among us. Should the chaff of MY humanity be found present, may it, with the breath of kindness, be gently blown away for the sake of the purity of the truth our Christ personifies.
May I humbly propose that the perplexing proposition that “Freewill”, in the SENSE that death, physical or spiritual, can choose life, is perhaps more clearly perceivable than a casual glance might suggest, thus potentially dispelling mystery and allowing the light of revelation to produce yet greater joy and praise.
Is it not but reasonable that neither Adam, after being formed, nor Lazarus, or even Jesus, could CHOOSE to be resurrected or “born again” which is what these situations seem to physically illustrate? Of what value is a physical resurrection without its essential spiritual precedent? One would be better off without the physical, in that case. Physical signs and wonders aside, which would we rather have without the other?
Were not these three mens wills as dead as their physical form? As the physical world was fashioned to illustrate (a pattern as moses was told) those things extant and essential in the heaven to which our attention is thereby directed, is not there a distinct similitude between these create, temporary figures and their essential invisible counterparts?
God through the apostle Paul directs our attention to primary considerations at 2Cor.4:18…
“WE look not to those things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.”
There doesn’t seem to be herein any breakdown in God’s common law of reason simply because one is discussing the spiritual, versus the physical, aspect of life. Has not God DESIGNED the physical to mirror the spiritual for the distinct purpose of illustrating the primacy of the spiritual?
“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” (Rom.1:20).
Is excuse for spiritual ignorance in view here in light of the abundance of create illustration that encompasses us constantly?
Trees so beautifully mirror Christ in that they, like He, take upon themselves our “discard” and return to us multiplied aspects of His providential care.
We exhale carbon dioxide, which trees absorb and suppy oxygen in exchange.
Christ takes our sins upon himself and gives back life.
Tie a plastic bag around a clump of tree borne pineneedles, especially in the heat of summer, and a couple of hours later you’ve got pure distilled water in the bottom of that bag.
Christ tells us he is the living water .
Trees provide us with fruit, nuts and shelter. What a mirror of Christ.
Christ likens the wind to Holy Spirit’s agency in applying his vicarious atonement to individuals lives thus accomplishing the Godheads redemption of The Elect:
“The wind blows where IT wishes (not man’s wishes), and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8).
The sun in its orbital precision so clearly mirrors the Fathers agency in predestination …totally predictable and dependable in its regularity. Its rising and setting are totally predestined:
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate…” (Rom.8:29)
Even the natural laws of magnetism so aptly illustrate the principle of attraction between the Shepherd and his sheep:
“My sheep HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, AND they FOLLOW ME” John 10:27).
Reconsideration of the observations concerning “MAGNETISM AND THE REDEEMED ELECT” toward the end of “Part C” of the article above on “John 3:16″, may have added value in exemplifying the principle of the elects spontaneous obedience to the masters “voice” as “heard” in the bible.
Joyfully however, that obedience is the “effect” of a proper perception of his love that sets us free from bondage to law, rules and commands. . . . not its cause.
All these physical similitudes to the spiritual essence to which the apostle Paul directs our attention seem ample evidence that the one perfectly mirrors the other and the physical analogies employed herein are thus validated as patterns of spiritual similarity and primary truth.
“The law of God: Beautiful, but Ineffective” That was the title of the sermon God used Dr. Raymond C. Ortlund Jr. to preach over radio in early 2,000, that converted 27 years of Arminian religion into Christianity for yours truly.
I’ll never forget the joyous freedom of that day and how God’s love, and his willingness to set me free from legalism to serve him in the freedom and joy of liberty in Christ, lifted my burden of law at the foot of the cross.
True freedom is voluntary . . . . even eager, “slavery to Christ.” What glorious irony in the sudden reality that true freedom comes in “slavery to Christ.”
My friend protests that THAT simply makes man a robot, and what glory to God is there in that? Let me tell you something friend. If the glorious opportunity is THEREBY afforded me to walk in lock step with the God of creation, or in the footprints of Jesus . . . .then I’ll gladly take all the robotism I can get. If being associated that closely with a nature THAT superior to my own is what he has designed and accomplished on my behalf . . .Praise his holy name! You want him on some other terms? Have at it my friend…I’m free for the first time in my life, in Christ!
Now the redeemed elect actually hate the sin they previously secretly craved but were trying to resist with a nature that was a “slave to sin.” Get it? We’re going to be slaves to one aspect of life or the other. Haven’t you realized that reality in your own experience? Hershey bar, anyone?
Shout for joy, lest the rocks in your present vicinity do it for you! Do you understand the symbolism of that poetic, figure of speech? Literal rocks are not going to literally cry out, but your joy should be so great right now that they would if they could. Get it? Christ wasn’t “pulling your leg.” He was taking literary license and employing an hyperbole (extreme exaggeration) to make the point that is best made with unrealistic verbal expression.
After the same similitude, Paul finds inexpressable joy upon arriving at Rom. 8:1&2, where he breaks out of the frustration of the last half of the 7th chapter of Romans. The confounded struggle portrayed there is between his natural carnal nature and his INTELLECTUAL desire to serve God prior to redemption.
Those first two verses of Romans 8 are like a breath of fresh air upon exiting gas mask training at Fort Benning back in 1960. The gas is like the law Paul is explaining, and how noxious it is to be burdened with that heavy load.
The GIFT of salvation in Christ Jesus, not our merit thereof via obedience to rules, sets us “free at last” of the burden of legality, and refurbishes our inner man to now favor Christ, and spiritual, not literal, obedience to the SPIRIT OF THE LAW of God, NOT THE LETTER. One can do the latter without doing the former, but all to no avail.
Law keeping, to be saved therby, only means one has fallen from grace, Not that one had grace and lost it, but that one has substituted legalism for grace, and thus fallen short of the loftier principle which actually incorporates salvation.
What joy we experience in realizing we no longer have to keep a list of rules to obey in order to “assist” in our salvation. God knows better than we, for he created us, that we’re imperfect, and will continue to fall short, even of our own expectations, but he has provided for THAT in Christ’s continued advocacy on our behalf, and we, now being DEAD TO THE PENALTY OF THE VERY PRINCIPLE OF SIN, as opposed to individual sins, have been cut a lot of slack! The “GOOD NEWS” was no doubt better than you previously thought it was.
“The law commands me obey, but gives me no means by which to comply. Grace gives me wings, and bids me fly.”
Praise God, ye children of “Israel”, set free in the SPIRIT OF LIFE and liberty IN CHRIST, from the bondage of servitude in the “Egypt” of law. See what it means to be IN CHRIST? You’re free! Who wants to sin when you’ve been given glorious liberty from SINS power via your new nature that fixes your heart and desires on him?
We will have some residual sin untill the day of the redemption of all things, but until then, Christ still advocates on our behalf, in heaven now, and there is not a chance in all eternity that we’ll be lost now ON THE INTEGRITY OF HIS WORD, not the uncertainty of our own. If you’re not blessed in this moment beyond your ability to express . . . . my friend your blesser’s broken. Ask Christ to fix it, cause this is too glorious to miss.
“Git on board little children, there’s room for many a more”, said the old negro spiritual of the 1800’s.
Praise God, we’re no longer expected to keep laws, in a struggle against our old carnal nature, but out of heart felt liberty in Christ, knowing we’re going to heaven on the strength of HIS pledge to us, instead of the uncertainty of our wishy washy vows to him. Let us properly glorify the Father therefore, by lifting up the Son in loving adoration, for we finally realize we are indeed eternally secure in him (Rev.20:6&14).
May I suggest there may be no breakdown in Gods law of logic when we transpose it from the physical realm to the spiritual. Bible doctrine and theology, do not become irrational, mysterious and all-over-the-board, just because we leave the realm of the create and direct our attention to the invisible things of the selfsame God. Like electricity, the current of spiritual logic still flows “through a circuit” in an orderly and functional fashion, and thus accomplishes a predictable, workable (logical) service.
The ONLY FREEWILL unto salvation is God’s, as relates to the Godheads reservation unto Himself of the ability to transform us from death to life.
The joy the spiritually dead experience when they suddenly “awake” to find they’ve been saved by God, not their sinners prayer, prompts the desire to repent as the logical consequence of their salvation, not its cause.
Baptism before salvation is just wasted water. We’re “baptized” by the “water” of the word first…then cerimonially with H2O, but that only as a natural obedience to his expressed will, not as though it produced any atoning merit by my participation in it. I’m still, and shall be to my dying day, a sinner saved by grace, not baptism, repentance, the Lords Supper, tithing or church attendance.
Jesus said of the repeated erronious assumption of men that they had ANYTHING to do with choosing life from their fallen state of TOTAL DEPRAVITY (spiritual death in Adam): “With men this is IMPOSSIBLE” (Mt.19:26).
What we’re interested in is “freegrace”, not the broken down “free ‘moral’ agency” of spiritually dead mankind.
Spirit is the energizing flow (“electricity”) of life, and man in his natural state is spiritually dead. The current of life is not flowing in us. Our sin has shorted the circuit with the Father. That’s why we have to be “Born Again”, because we were all spirituall stillborn at our physical birth. The switch was thrown in the Garden of Eden, and the “lights” have been “out” ever since. God in three persons either “flips the switch” again, or we’d die in our sins.
Dead men, whether dead physically or spiritually do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING whatsoever to resurrect themselves from death in Adam. That’s God’s job alone, and he’s jealous of that job. Don’t mess with what HE does for a living.
Again, even Christ in the toomb could not resurrect himself or be “Born Again” as physical resurrection was employed to exemplify, because he always “plays” by the rules he’s already established.
If Christ had had ANY part in his own resurrection, THEN HE DIDN’T REALLY DIE AT CALVARY, and THAT is exactly what Islam claims. They say he was simply comatose, revived naturally, and Christianity is thus voided, for it is on the strength of the Father raising him, and us, to newness of life, that Christianity finds its unique essence. But no, GOD the Father DID raise him. He did not raise himself!
Now, there’s no need to fret because you can’t prove THAT to anyone else. All religious belief is built on the basis of faith. It depends, and very seriously so , on whom or what your faith is in.
Mythological Isis left no footprints on this earth, but Christ Jesus came in the flesh, and confronted men and governments with his presence. The reality of his existence is recorded in Roman writings still available in most libraries collections of ancient and classical literature.
We’ve absolutely no need to question or apologize for our faith, and the awareness the redeemed elect have of HIS reality and Lordship.
Scoffers will ever exist. So what? They’re only fulfilling prophecies to the effect that scoffers would appear at the time of the end.
An apt illustration of the limit of mans imagined “free ‘moral’ agency” is related at Joshua 24:15…
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods (small ‘g’) of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
Note two things: It was the idolatry before the flood that caused the flood (not God); and Joshua was addressing The Primary Set of National Israel, which included mostly unsaved people who COULD NOT choose the God of life. Joshua was part of The Elect, having been PREVENIENTLY chosen by God. He was part of the SUBSET of “Israel” which is a complete unit in itself, within the PRIMARY SET of the nation, the majority of which is cast off, as are the major portion of all mankind.
They are instructed of Joshua to choose which flavor idolatry they preferred. The past false gods, or the present crop of false gods. Their “Free Moral Agency” is limited to the set or subset they as individuals happen to find themselves in at the moment. They have certain latitude of choice in carnal matters, but again, as is so aptly illustrated here, THEY cannot choose life in the true God Of Life. God will have none of it!
The daughter of a local business man became so confused on this issue, through her involvement in a religious cult, that she nearly lost her mind. It got so bad she panicked when approaching an intersection in her car. “Which way does God want me to go? Which way is it predestined I should go!!!?”
Don’t worry about it lady. Go which ever way you want to go. You are a free agent in that respect, but you’re free agency doesn’t extend to choosing eternal life out of the spiritual state of death you’re presently in. YOU NEED A SAVIOR outside youself. . . . not an assistant. A perfect vicarious lamb, not anything of your goat nature. All the praise, honor and glory will go to the God in Christ who made the only provision for all men, Jew and Gentile…or there’ll be no praise to be offered.
I sincerely hope these insights have helped one and all to understand the true nature and limits of free agency. Confusion, perplexity and mystery have hopefully hereby been dispelled. For me, and many others this is bedrock doctrine upon which Christ’s universal “church” is built. May your questions be thus laid to rest, and our marvelous God the more praised in Christ Jesus, mankind’s only Lord and Savior. Amen.
“It is not the REALITY of the will which is in question, but its INDEPENDENCE from the rest of our fallen nature, and its CAPACITY to choose autonomously against God’s eternal purposes.
The question dividing Arminianism from Calvinism is about what (or whom) CAUSES the will to act, not whether the will exists, which both affirm.”
(“No Place For Sovereignty – What’s wrong with Freewill Theism” by: R.K. McGregor Wright)
God bless us, one and all. Amen.
November 27, 2008 at 12:48 pm |
Lonnie,
I can see how the young lady felt like she was going crazy. I think this is all a matter of perspective. It is true that we cannot save ourselves independent of God. We obviously need the Grace of God to obtain salvation. It is also true that God knows the end from the beginning. He has an eternal perspective. So, if one tries to be like God and see things from a perspective only He can see from, it may seem as if there is nothing one can do that would impact one’s salvation. But we are here in this existence and we have been given the Word of the Lord to live by. We get a glimpse of eternity through the scriptures but we are given the Gospel to live by.
God and His servants are continuously exhorting us to choose good, to choose God, and to choose the grace of Christ. Why all the preaching and exhorting and warning if we are not free to respond? Why preach of salvation if we cannot choose to accept it? And what sense does it make for Paul and many others to warn believers to endure in the faith until the end lest they fall?
The idea that patience, endurance, diligence and effort on our part are required should be abundantly clear from passages like these:
Prov. 19:16 (we must keep the commandments to keep our soul)
Matt. 19: 16-21 (“if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”)
Matt. 7:21-23 (professing belief does not save, but we must do the will of God)
Rom. 2:4-11 (patient continuance in well-doing leads to glory and life)
Col. 1: 21-23,27,28 (we are reconciled to God if we continue in the faith, we have hope of glory in Christ)
Philip. 2:12,13 (work out your salvation with fear and trembling)
Similar to the way in which I give my own children rules and explain consequences for not following them, my Father in heaven gives me rules to follow and describes the consequences for not following. He lovingly has provided a Savior knowing that I am imperfect and will falter. I know his justice and mercy are perfect and that all will be right in the end. He gives me Christ as a perfect example to follow that I might become a little better. This is what brings me joy.
November 27, 2008 at 10:39 pm |
THERE IS NOT ONE ARMINIAN VERSE IN THE BIBLE. NOT ONE!
Dr. John MacArthur has observed that when he begins to prepare a sermon, he addresses the text under consideration to determine WHAT THEY SAY. THEN he prayerfully contemplates them to determine WHAT THEY MEAN.
Not one…including ALL the above.
Lon
November 28, 2008 at 12:27 am |
Lonnie,
What is an Arminian verse? Sorry if I don’t have a great theological background, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Who is Dr. MacArthur?
November 28, 2008 at 5:45 am |
Dear friend,
“Arminian” refers to one: Jacobus Arminius 1560-1609; Dutch Protestant theologian (Websters New World Dictionary of the American Language).
“Calvinism” refers to one: John Calvin 1509-1564; French Protestant Reformer (Same source).
These men lived during the most dangerous period in church history since the first century . . . .The Protestant Reformation, begun when Martin Luther took public issue with the Roman Catholic Church concerning internal corruption.
In the process of defining just exactly what Biblical Christianity actually was apart from prevailing institutional perversion thereof, Calvin wrote extensively concerning what are loosely referred to today as “Doctrines of Grace”:
T otal Depravity
U nconditional Election
L imited Atonement
I rresistible Grace
P erserverance (better put: Preservation) of the Saints
You will note that the first letter of each doctrine, when read vertically forms the “acrostic”: TULIP.
“Acrostic”: A verse or arrangement of words in which certain letters in each line, such as the first or last, when taken in order spell out a word, motto, etc.
You recall Jeff employed one from a homeless mission in response to my explanations of John 3:16. His spelled: GOSPEL when read vertically.
After the death of Arminius, some of his followers got together and argued Calvins points with five points of their own, which I don’t have in front of me at the moment, but basically they argued as I did for nearly three decades, and you are presently doing, that salvation hinged on human contribution to what we contend is the “finished work of Christ.”
“…And the beat goes on”, generation to generation. Now it’s our turn. May God in Christ be ultimately glorified. Amen?
Dr. John MacArthur is a noted Christian author and radio and T.V. personality. He’s published many books, including the MacArthur Study Bible. His radio and television program is titled: “Grace To You.” You can no doubt obtain considerable information on all three of these men by typing their names into your search engine. Google any of that information, or check out encyclopedia at your local library.
Hate to leave good company, but the local restaurant opens for breakfast at 6:15 A.M. and I’d sure like to be standing tall and “looking good” at that time. If you’ll excuse me, maybe we can talk a little later.
Once again, I’ll give you my e-mail address if you would like to discuss some of these things personally without us taking up so much of this websites space. If I can be of help, buddy, please feel free to drop a line to: loncrawley@bellsouth.net
God bless you, dude.
November 29, 2008 at 5:26 pm |
Regardless of what some theologian came up with 400 years ago or what some PhD says, it is hard to read all of these scriptures and continue to say that there is nothing that we can or should do to affect our salvation. Here are some more:
Heb. 10:36 (we have need of patience to receive the promise after doing the will of God)
Heb. 12:1-10 (run with patience the race set before us, follow Jesus who endured the cross; endure chastening of the Lord, that we might be partakers of his holiness)
Heb. 12: 14,15 (look “diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God”)
2 Pet. 1:4-10 (steady progress, faith, and diligence required to make our calling and election sure)
Rev. 22:14 (those who keep God’s commandments have right to the tree of life).
November 29, 2008 at 8:18 pm |
Not one, dude…not one.
November 30, 2008 at 9:16 pm |
IS OBEDIENCE TO COMMANDS A CAUSE OF SALVATION? (Part A)
Mr. Dude,
So much of your confusion apparently results from not understanding what salvatin is. It is an immediate act of God in bestowing the gift. At a birthday party you present your gift as an act, not a process. His gift is eternal and needs no maintenance.
At Mt.5:25&26 Christ is not suddenly teaching sociology but salvation still. God is our adversary. We’re brought up on charges (sin). We’re to make our supplication for acquittal before we die, for after that, grace is past. The prison is the lake of fire. Since we tried to do the impossible here on earth, and “pay our way”, we’re now consigned to the “prison” from which we can never pay out. The penalty is as eternal as the security. . . .”Eternal Penalty”, Harold Camping notwithstanding.
If we don’t stand before the judgement seat of Christ before we die, the judgement is past already. That judgement to which you refer after death has nothing to do with a determining process of your eternal destiny at that time. THAT was settled before any man dies. This “judgement” only concerns the debiting and crediting of rewards. Apparently even those being cast away eternally will experience a setteling of accounts in the blessings and penalty department. Salvation is not a reward. No one’s eternal destiny is altered at that time.
I’m a bit surprised that you submit a proof text for an imagined Arminian statement which is pure contradiction to the point you’re trying to make. I would have cautiously thrown Philippians 2:12 on the table and tried to create a distraction before anyone read vrs.13, but “Be Dog!” if you didn’t shoot your own self in the foot.
At Philippians1:1, Paul is writing to the SAINTS >IN< CHRIST. Their salvation is a done deal, period. Their NEW NATURE, which Arminians never grasp, puts them in harmony with the very SPIRIT of God’s law. They’re not struggling against a yet unregenerated nature as do Arminians.
“Examine yourselves whether ye be in the faith” (2Cor.13:5) is what Paul is saying, in effect, to the saints at Philippi. This is simply a verse of ASSURANCE.
A natural, easy, non-legalistic obedience to the known will of God is the only source of assurance anyone has that … it is not even we ourselves doing the Fathers good pleasure…, but His Spirit within us, and working out of us BOTH to WILL and to DO his good pleasure. It’s not so much WHAT we do, as WHY we do it that matters.
Dr. Ray Ortlund observed in a sermon that it is actually a sin to obey God’s law to OBTAIN salvation. That’s legal-idolatry, making an idol out of the law.
As an EFFECT of salvation, obedience producesa beautifully tranquil, domestic relationship with God.
My friend Eddie whose council I requested this morning (Sunday, Nov.30,08) just called back about 1:00P.M. and we have been blessed beyond imagination for the last hour. Things that came to him as I read him what I had written of this letter last evening amazed us both. Things we have read repeatedly over 35 years, and yet this afternoon…we got insight into glory neither of us have ever imagined. I only hope I can do justice to what we’ve shared this day.
When I read the statement above by Dr. Ortlund and commented on legal-idolatry, he stopped me and injected Exodus20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Isn’t it interesting how even God’s law can become an idol?
At Numbers chapter 21 the people of Israel spake against God and Moses (vrs.5), so God sent poisonous serpents to chow down on the boys. Right quick, in vrs.7 the people “saw the light”, and in vrs.8 God had Moses make a brasen serpent and set it upon a pole so anyone thus bitten could look upon that foreshadow of Christ, and they would live physically. Christ took our poisonous death-sins upon himself when he was, in like fashion as the serpent, raised up from the earth at Calvary (Jn.12:32).
That brasen serpent was a proper production of God’s command, and it served a good purpose, within its intended boundries, or limits.
We come on over to 2Kings18:4 however and we find king Hezekiah, king of Israel, destroyed that same brasen serpent, for at that juncture in their history, the people of Israel began to burn incense to it. They made an idol out of God’s own instrument of deliverance at an earlier time. They took their eyes off the “person” of God and fixed their gaze on the create pattern of the essence the symbol represented. That’s idolatry, and people today commit legal (obedience), racial(Jews), institutional (church), baptismal (water) idolatry without a clue.
These things were done for our learning (Rom.15:4). The law pointed us to Christ, and the law not only never saved ANYONE…in fact its effect on mankind is to reveal our inferiority to God’s nature, which exposes our sin, and sin kills us. The law was to point us to our need of Christ, whom the brasen serpent foreshadowed, or illustrated…was a type of, a figure, metaphor, symbol, signification or allegory (Gal.3:19-29).
Now I don’t think this is just a coincidental twist of a story without meaning. I think it is heavy with significance as a symbol of how the Jews would idolize both Moses and even obedience to laws as a means of salvation, thus commiting legal-idolatry.
Constantly trying to reason with that stiff-necked crowd of Jews is what got Paul stoned, ship wrecked, imprisoned etc. Over and over, Romans through Thessalonians, Paul applies himself to explaining the relationship of grace to law, and they were no more inclined to it than dude has been till now.
At Rom.7:9 Paul says: “I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.” Keeping law didn’t do a thing for Paul, but show him his need of a source of life and righteousness outside himself. The law kills, not saves.
The laws (God’s) virtue aspired to, once out from under its curse, is a glorious liberty that endears our God to ourselves, but idolized, the law becomes the stench of death as surely as Moses brasen serpent.
God,,,the very “person” of God is to be mankinds focus, not our silly little knit-picking religion. “Look how I’ve cleaned myself up with Jesus help,” church going religionist proclaim. I’m really embarrassed for the poor souls who will make their offer of obediences performed instead of Christ’s atonement as the merit by which they seek entry into the heavenly realm. Many will no doubt be both honest…and shocked that their leagally obedient “Christian life” wasn’t the asking price. Casual assumption will be such a let down.
I said to Eddie early this afternoon when the glory of the Lord shown round about us at locations three geographical miles apart, and we were filled with joy unto laughter and nearly beyond expression…I said to him, God must really love this guy dude, to have brought 35 years of indepth study on both our parts to any such glorious insights as we’re sharing. Now, if only God will give me the ability to give the insights feet that they may walk into the hearts of others, what a day of joy this will have been. O God, glorify youself, please I pray, and grant us herebelow edification unto brotherhood and fellowship in the truth of the Living Word…Amen.
Even the CHRISTIANS “will” is not free, much less the UNREGENERATES. The Christian’s will is subject to their new nature. The issue is not whether we have a functioning will, but what causes its choices.
The unregenerated, no matter how religious, are yet slaves of sin and self, and their wills are limited to exercise within THAT sphere. They cannot possibly choose God, any more than a pot can choose the potter. Christ emphatically says that THAT IS an IMPOSSIBLE proposition.
Our exercised will is but a symbol of the causation that produced it. Both sensate and regenerated spirits produce choices limited to either of those spheres, and there is no possibility on mans behalf of ever transcending those limitations. “With God (however) all things are possible”(Mt.19:26).
You can assemble scriptures from the four corners of the Bible, and heap them up to heaven, but you’re in for disaster except you yet be one of the unredeemed elect, as was Paul prior to being called and redeemed. The reason being, that you’re NOT buliding on the foundation Christ, but on man (sand) and He promises your house of cards will not stand. Each and every scripture you’ve quoted teaches contrary to what you suggest.
I didn’t spend 27 years in that error and not obtain a “Masters Degree” in Arminianism.
When, in the future, you read a verse that seems to say we have to contribute to our salvation by some legalistic act of obedience, try saying to yourself…”I see what it seems to be saying, or actually does say, but in light of all these other scriptural considerations, what must it actually mean? Then sit back and think on the possibilities. Be still and let God pass various considerations before your consciousness or subconsciousness, and see if illumination occurs. If it does, Mister, you will be the recipient of great joy. That’s my prayer for you. Read for one minute, and think about what you read for two.
Now those couple of other scriptural admonitions I wanted to share with you are these:
1Tim.5:1…Paul, the elder, is writing to Timothy, the younger, and he says to him: . . . .”Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a Father;”
1Tim.1:5-7&9…”Now the end of the COMMANDMENT is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto VAIN JANGLING; DESIRING TO BE TEACHERS OF THE LAW; UNDERSTANDING NEITHER WHAT THEY SAY, NOR WHEREOF THEY AFFIRM…KNOWING THIS, THAT THE LAW IS NOT MADE FOR A “RIGHTEOUS” MAN…
Now, quickly remember that the righteousness that any man ever has, or ever shall have, is Christ’s, and that IMPUTED (very important bible word. Learn its meaning) or declared to be credited to our bankrupt spiritual accounts. Spiritually bankrupt due to the total Depravity of mankinds fallen nature involving Adams transgression…again, IMPUTED to all mankind, and abridged by God’s grace in its IMPUTED righteousness to the elect. It’s all a God job, dude. You can DO nothing.
Please, Father…give the guy enlightenment. He’s digging Father…even a worm such as I sees that, and how much more yourself. Perhaps you desire these prayers of one sinner for another, that we might all stand on level ground at the foot of the cross, with our arms around each others sholders in grateful equality before our holy Creator, Lord and Savior. To thee be ALL praise, honor and glory most gracious God, not as my friend Gary says: “Not 95% of either of those attributes attributed to God, with 5% due to men for their contribution, but 100%, period;” To which I reply, Amen.”
James 3:1&2 “My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect (mature) man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” Let’s us together strive toward maturity, what do you say, dude? Come on buddy. Isa.40:9 “Behold your God!”
Many years ago someone, I know not whom, made an interesting observation. They said: “Ignorance is simply not knowing something. Stupidity is not being willing to learn.” God, my friends and I are all painfully aware of my vast ignorance, and I can’t deny some stupidity perhaps, but God forbid I should wallow in the stuff.
I’ve contacted my friend Gary about the wisdom, or the lack thereof, of submitting these thoughts. I really don’t want to say these things, and particularly in this public setting, but for reasons that are your own, and which I respect, you choose not to communicate on an e-mail basis.
Perhaps, as Gary advises me, there will be others dealing with similar issues whom God might direct by this location, and whom He might enlighten by what is presented here…”to the praise of the glory of his grace” (Eph.1:6). This message has been ready for submission since last night, but I await the advice of a second friend before I make a prayerful decision. If I do send it, I do so hope it is received with charity despite the felt need, at this point, to be more direct. I submit it, if I do, in the spirit of 1Cor.13, and pray it may be received in that very spirit of charity.
The friend whose advice I await, after listening over the phone as I read him several of your comments a week or so ago, commented: “Some people will argue with a WET CEMENT sign. I fear he described what has proven to be your nature, and I’d greatly prefer to delete this composition, but…I’ll wait, and pray until I hear from Eddie.
Gary, with whom I’ve already discussed this matter, while usually encouraging me to go slow and with much prayer, surprisingly this morning encourages me to send these thoughts immediately, having kept up with this website daily since I began the John3:16 article.
He also scrolled back up to Jeff’s comments of 11-25-08 @4:58PM where the point is reiterated repeatedly that “God is in control.” Those thoughts afford me much consolation this morning. I know just how unimportant to God’s successful conclusion of his predetermined plan I am. If however he chooses to use this means of displaying his love for lost and dying mankind whom he sent Christ to salvage in part, and THAT while we were yet enemies, then let me not disdain to incur even your denunciation, if it will work for yours and others greater good tomorrow.
I honestly do care that the bewilderment over the reason for rules, if obedience thereunto doesn’t lead to salvation, be disspelled by logical Biblical exegesis. That same question drove me nuts for decades, but boy was the long delayed answer worth the wait. I never had anyone lay it out as clearly as I’ve tried to do here, and Gary’s, Eddie’s and my sincere hopes and prayers are with you and others who might profit from this casual effort.
These last five paragraphs begining with: “I’ve contacted my friend Gary” were part of last nights original letter, and I’ve left them in for whatever insights they offer into the concerns about being helpful and not hurtful in any sense.
I’m going to close at this point and make this a two part message, lest my screen blips and I lose so much information I’d never be able to reconstruct. We’re pulling for you, and a bunch of others dude. This concludes (Part A).
December 3, 2008 at 7:03 pm |
Fot the second time I have just experienced the loss of 24 hrs. of composition on Part B of the article above.
Except for cat-naps between typing sessions I’ve had the computer on for twenty four hours. The browser, for the second time recently “hung-up to the extent that the flashing icon that indicates where in the text you’re located would not push the text along ahead of itself, but rather would erase as it proceeded.
When I clicked the “submit Comment” button below, the entire text vanished, and twenty four hours with it. So sorry, but God knew that and I acquiesce.
December 4, 2008 at 3:08 am |
Lonnie,
For those really long postings, I suggest you write it in Word or some other text editor and then cut and paste it into the browser. Then it will not be subject to the whims of the browser or your internet connection. It is very frustrating to lose stuff.
I don’t understand why you want me to communicate via email. I don’t think anything we are discussing is secret, offensive, or distracting to anyone. I feel very comfortable having these discussions in a public forum.
I also submit to you Matthew chapter 25. At the end of the chapter, Christ accepts those who performed services to their fellow souls, and rejected those that had not. Clearly, there is something we must do. Of the ten virgins, representing professed followers of Christ, the five that were prepared (through having performed the services mentioned) were let in. They could not share their oil because that was obtained drop by drop through righteous living. How can you in an instant, if it were possible at all, give that to someone else? They could not. So the others, who were unprepared, had to scramble to gather their own oil. Having procrastinated preparations that they should have been making for some time, they lost their opportunity. Of course, even the prepared ones could not enter into the marriage without Christ. That would be impossible. We cannot save ourselves. This requires the Grace of God.
December 4, 2008 at 8:43 pm |
Dude,
Thanks much for the technical tips on computer mechanics. “Cut and paste” is only a term I’ve heard, “But can’t begin to know the meaning of” (Nat King Cole). I’m new at computers, and have a tremendous amount to learn.
Not understanding the simple purpose “originally stated” for the intended consideration of conserving space on another man’s website is commensurate (equal in measure) with the general lack of understanding to date.
I have feared Jeff might not appreciate the depths probed, and might block or delete what he might consider a nuisance. If I dare take silence on his part for consent to continue, then, being new at this…I wonder if there is an end to these “pages?”
If someone wanted to print-out the original posting “The Inoffensive Gospel” do they now, no thanks to me, have to print out 40 pages to obtain it?
My concern has been courtesy, and that alone. What a joy it is to hope many others might benefit from the “Open Forum”, but if we reach the bottom of this “page”, where do we go from there? Like Bartimaeus I’m supplicating for enlightenment in these matters for my ignorance therein equates to blindness.
The five foolish “virgins” are but “professors” of Christianity. They are only part of the “PRIMARY SET”, or merely external representatives, as was national Israel. Tares, they’re called in the New Testament. The foolish are not part of the holy remnant “SUBSET.” That reality is obvious from the fact that Christ said: “I know you not” (Mt.25:12). Had he ever known them He would still have done so, for they would have been eternally secure in His keeping (Jn.6:37).
Grace, not “service to fellow souls” is the figurative “oil” in view. Christ is the good “Olive” from which the oil is obtained by “acquittal or grace”, not our “scrambling” about, Henny Penny style. “And of His fulness have we all (the elect) received, (not “obtained”), and grace for grace” (Jn.1:16). Was that “caught?”…grace for grace “received”, and that freely, by mercy, not “drop by drop “obtained”, through righteous living.” You’re still not “getting” the principle of “cause and effect.”
Charity is a fruit (EFFECT) of the Spirit indwelling the redeemed by God’s grace, not of human manufacture. resulting in atoning merit (CAUSE). That’s idolatry! Only Christ’s blood and death atones for sin, and that atonement is applied to the individual as the distinct agency or work of Holy Spirit, not man’s self-application. Salvation is not a “Do It Yourself” proposition. That’s impossible (Mt.19:25 & 26).
2Cor.5:18,19&21b . . . . “And ALL things are OF GOD, who hath reconciled us to himself BY JESUS CHRIST..” Vrs. 19 “God was in Christ, reconciling the “world” unto Himself (without “distinction”, Jew and Gentile alike; not without “exception”, “specific” versus “universal” atonement), not IMPUTING their trespasses unto them;” Vrs.21b “…That we might be made the rightoeusness of God in Him.”
Reconciliation is God’s “work” in NOT IMPUTING our trespasses unto us on the merit of Christ’s righteousness IMPUTED to our bankrupt spiritual accounts. Salvation is 100% the work of the Godhead (Alpha & OMEGA), by grace without human assist; neither repentance, belief, faith, vows, water baptism, church membership or attendance, the Lords Supper, tithing, abstaining from adultery physically, while lusting after it spiritually, proclaiming the virtue of the various fruit of the Spirit as a “cause” rather than the “effect” of salvation. In other words, ANYTHING, including God’s very law and Fruit of his nature that man employes as a “cause” to try to produce atoning merit, instantly becomes an idol. God’s own words and nature become idols when men, still enslaved in their sensate nature, try by intellectual perception and reformation of lifestyle to contribute atoning merit to the Godhead’s long since accomplished mission.
Dr. Raymond C. Ortlund Jr. made this exclamation in a sermon back in January or February of 2000:
“Behavioral Modification Is Rebellion Against God.”
At 12:15 A.M. December 04, 2008 I HAD to get out of bed when a phrase occured to me that I knew would evaporate into the ether if I didn’t bring it into this world in printed form. The phrase is:
“Supplementation Is Idolatry To Sovereignty.”
Sovereignty, by its very definition, neither requires, nor accepts any assistance, period!
The accomplishment of heroic disciplines by unregenerated human willpower only creates religious idolatry. Not that sticking to a diet, or kicking alcoholism are not great accomplishments and much to be encouraged, or are evil in themselves, but when they are submitted to God as “Behavioral” or “Supplemental” self accomplished units of atoning merit (with Sovereignty’s “assistance” we understand, despite the contradiction of terms), they immediately fly in the face of the Godhead’s complete accomplishment on our behalf, and spontaneously relegate the proponent to condemnation for idolatry.
We prove Total Depravity when we, thus deceived, practice those very religious acts that have, throughout history, been the evidence of mankind’s fallen nature, and his “wills” inability to choose independently against God’s eternal purposes. Man’s will is broken, and cannot, and according to God, will not…by its very corrupted nature, choose God. The pot CANNOT choose the potter. Its ultimate worth, whether to honor or dishonor, is determined by its creator, not the vessel itself…not even in minuscule measure. Gary often asks: “How can something that was made…choose whatever made it?” Good question, buddy. Or, “The saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it?” (Isa.10:15).
Not only does the body of law become idolatry when relied upon as a cause of salvation, in any measure, but even the very attributes of His grace are contaminated by sinful men when they try to mimic them, as when an actor “acts” the part of someone he is not.
Again, we do not “LIVE” the Christian life, nor can we “Be” Christians in order to “obtain” salvation. ANYTHING we offer as supplemental is filthy by God’s decree, and filth does not a white garment produce. We either ARE Christians on the basis of His choosing, or we are not. There is no in between, nor jumping back and forth. We “ARE” or are not saved, but we’re not working at it. It is not a process, but an immediate act, and those facts are dealt with in greater depth throughout everything I’ve written at this sight since the first presentation of John 3:16.
I’ll tell you dude…if you are actually anyone but Jeff in a different disguise using a ploy to elicit rebuttal, the total godlessness of the “theology” being attempted is pitiful to say it as kindly as possible. This stuff constitutes sure fire candidacy for the condemnation pronounced on “Other Gospels” at Gal. 1:8&9. This is pure, unabashed, humanistic IDOLATRY! I really don’t believe at present that anyone can be this far-out. Surely Father…surely this is all a bad joke. I’m not trying to be hurtful or rude by any means, but God forbid these arguments might ever be mentioned when the books are opened at the second advent, not having been pardoned BEFORE their proponents physical death or transformation. This is highly dangerous religion, and even the non-elect would be better off totally forgetting about religion than subscribing to anything as condemning as this.
At Col.2:20-23 Paul comes down hard on obedience to rules as a means of salvation. He makes the point that such external human precepts appear wise in promoting self-made religion, but are of no value in dealing with the source of our problem.
We don’t get our oil from other “Christians” thus the five unwise are pointed back to the only source of illumination. Their lamps (of temporary intellectual consent to a ‘popular’ movement) had gone out, or were going out., Their being instructed to “buy” the “oil” of Christ only implies supplicating for it which is its only means of availability. The word “buy” is significant in the sense that we are told to “buy wine and milk without money and without price.” Be sure the eternal gift has been paid for in God’s own economy at extremely high cost, but the salvation that we thus take gratuitously at God’s hands is “bought” on our part without compensatory exchange.
The five pretenders didn’t lose an “opportunity” they never had, not ever having been numbered among The Elect. No, the non-elect are not the seeking “scramblers” as you refer to them, but rather manifest their station by their accustomed propensity of fighting, fleeing or simply ignoring the Shephard.
Even the true sheep don’t go merrily tripping along to wake the Shephard of any given morning, but contentedly “occupy” until He arrives, and follow when He calls (Luke19:13; Jn.10:27). Neither do we make “Preparations” for salvation beyond supplicating. It is HE who “prepares” for us, and not we ourselves. Any “services performed” were only the natural consequence of the new nature given by God, and are so instinctive to the regenerate that they don’t even remember them, and have to be reminded. They know of course that it was not they themselves doing such things, but the indwelling gift of His Spirit thereby working through and out of themselves. they only reflect His glory, and give Him all praise, honor and glory for thus glorifying Himself in them. Arminians, and Pentecostal Arminians in particular are big on getting “credit” for religious activity. Highly conscious are they, and sure that everyone else is, of all the good that they’ve done. God will not have to open His books to get the “True Story” on that crowd…they’ll be only too happy to “strut their stuff.” How unspeakably sad.
A quick reminder to any other novices out there who are serious about correct Biblical exegesis. Google: Matthew Henry’s Commentary and put it in your “Favorites List.” You’ll find it invaluable.
Also, do the same with “Spurgeons Archives”, and especially memorize his sermon “Justice Satisfied.”
Just above dude’s comment of November 24, 2008 @1:47 A.M. I have listed four valuable books for serious students.
December 5, 2008 at 8:22 am |
Hey Dude,
Mister, I owe you an apology my friend. At least I hope I can still call you my friend. I have to be honest…you’ve hit me with some stuff I’ve never come across in my whole life, and Gary and I have seriously begun to wonder if you and Will we’re just Jeff playing name games and coming at me with the old good cop…bad cop routine to keep me going.
This morning I took a printed copy of our last two letters to the restaurant, and while I was sitting there reading, I realized you’re for real. My God, I am so sorry if I’ve seemed anything but kind. Please forgive me and give me another chance to walk this road together with you, buddy.
I’ve got to run pay a bill and pick up a few things at the grocery, but I want to come back and try to do better by you than I did in my last letter. Thank you so much for talking with me. I’m so thankful God has given us this opportunity to “meet” and, together, share the glory of His love. Just hang tough with me, buddy, and let’s see if we can make some sense of this book together.
Some people think the Bible is easy to read and understand. I know it is not, and I honestly believe God wrote it in such a way as to confuse the pure daylights out of folks who are like the five unwise “virgins’, religious but indifferent. I believe you’re digging for truth, and you’ve got a better chance than many of understanding it. I truly look forward to our days together…if this method of communication remains available. Just in case we get shut down, write my e-mail address down somewhere so we’ll at least have that option if this fails.
God bless you and yours, dude. I want to talk about what you said about the 5 wise not sharing their oil. That’s what I “saw” this morning that I didn’t understand until now. More later… Lon
December 6, 2008 at 1:26 am |
Lonnie,
No tricks here. I don’t think Jeff would have done anything like that. In fact, the only reason I was willing to submit my email address here is that it seemed a trustworthy place.
I am by no means a Biblical scholar and I don’t have the ability you have with words. I am just trying to follow the promptings which come to me as I pray and study the scriptures. I also listen to lots of people’s explanations of what they understand the Bible to say. I don’t want to seem to be forcing my own beliefs on anyone else. I find it interesting to compare them with those of others who believe differently. Don’t worry about anything you might have said. No harm done here. You have alot of passion and I’m a bit envious of your ability to express that.
The five wise virgins’ vessels werre filled with the oil of the Gospel of Christ, which lights their way and gives light to others. I also think that is what is meant in Phil 2:13 “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Having collected the Gospel in our vessel, it generates light which should not be hid. Anyway, these virgins were called wise because they were prepared, that is they had done all the things the scriptures admonish us and command us to do. The others had every opportunity, apparently. They had vessels and, as the wise virgins suggested to them, they could have gotten oil from those that sell it. But they chose not to.
I think the 3 parables in Matthew are saying similar things. The next one, about the Lord and the three servants, seems to me to be saying that we are given blessings with which to do the Lord’s work. I think it means that we should be using what has been given us to improve ourselves and serve others. The servant that hid his talent was chided for being slothful and was cast out. It also tells me that the Lord is a perfect judge. It wasn’t that each servant needed to do a specific thing. The two “good and faithful” servants magnified their talents to different levels, but both received grace from the Lord.
I agree that the Bible is not always easy to read. I have found it easier to read over time, but most accessible when I combine it with sincere prayer. I’m sure you feel the same. I’ve never been one to be taken in by preachers. I’m not saying that there aren’t any honest and sincere preachers out there, I just think that each individual has to study and ask God directly for truth, as in James 1:5 :
“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”
December 6, 2008 at 9:34 am |
Lonnie,
No games here. I monitor all submissions, have chimed in 3 or 4 times, and always encourage the exchange of ideas supported by Scripture. I take this blog site very seriously. The LORD has seen fit to draw approx 40,000 visitors here to accomplish His purposes. And to Him goes all the glory. Jeff
December 6, 2008 at 9:57 am |
Dude and all.
I’ve been up typing since about midnight. When I finished around 6:30 A.M. I discovered dude had submitted comment #33; Dec.6,08 @1:26A.M. of which I was unaware as I composed what I assume will be comment # 35.
I’ve taken dude’s advice and begun typing my observations on Outlook Express lest they be lost to electronic glitches as twice previously in the past month. Not knowing yet how to Cut & Paste…is that the term(?), I’m left to retype the entire composition into this Comment Window.
In dude’s third paragraph above he does my heart happy with the reference to the “oil” of the Gospel of Christ. That is such a departure from comment #33 of Dec.4th. which ascribed “works” and “righteous living” the station due Christ and the gospel. What joy I’d like to express, but without some explanation for the dichotomy, I’m afraid to rejoice prematurely. What about it dude, is this the dawn of a new day, or to what do we attribute the variance?
I’ll go ahead and type last evenings composition as composed and there are things therein that will perhaps explain my caution about assuming things that might benefit from further clarification.
Isn’t it great, however, to see in his next to the last paragraph that emphasis on the Bible and prayer? Go for it, dude! More and more, your sounding like my kinda man.
I assumed that to be the case when you were the first respondent to my first blog on the Nov.06 posting regarding “water baptism” only to realize later I’d assumed too much from your remarks. “Lay hands suddenly on no man” (1Tim.5:22).
I’m lovin’ this, dude, and feeling more like kin all the time. Thanks for the kind words fellow. You’re none to shabby yourself, my friend. Thanks for your overall kindness. How happy the good company of those who “diligently seek Him” (Heb. 11:6).
Telephonic interruptions notwithstanding, I hope to have last evenings comments posted by around the noon hour. God bless you all.
December 6, 2008 at 12:57 pm |
Dude…
The task before us “seems”, at the outset, to be extremely difficult. It may not be. We are at the very beginning of an undertaking where basic, general rules that define what a game IS or is not, have to be agreed upon. Obviously we can’t play by different rules and call ourselves playing the SAME game. The challenge before us is to be able to agree on certain meanings without destroying that tender thing we call “faith” that may mean different things to you and I at the beginning. We all grow up under different circumstances that shape how, and what we understand life, and words, to be and mean. We’ve all probably laughed at ourselves, or others when we look back at childhood and some of the funny things we “thought” we heard someone else say, when all along we misundestood, and later that misunderstanding was so funny we had to laugh at it.
One example that comes to mind is the story of the boy who was heard to pray the Lord’s Prayer (Mt.6:9-13) out loud, and he began…”Our Father who art in heaven, Howard be thy name…” The kid was alright, wasn’t he? He may not have been all right, but he was getting there, and that’s what we’re looking for HERE…getting THERE. He was too young to know anything about “Hallowed” (sacred), but he knew his uncle Howard, and that was good enough for him…at that time. It doesn’t work too well for the same kid when he reaches twenty, but it’s funny as all get out at three.
That’s an example of where we get our preconceived notions (preconceptions), misunderstandings (misconceptions)…opinions formed beforehand, or at an early age…before we had “all” the facts or definitions, when honest mistakes are made. If we, due to pride, or embarrassment to admit our mistakes, or because we’re older than someone else, and hate to admit we were wrong about a disagreement we had with “that kid”,…any of a hundred different problems that arise between people…often due to a misunderstanding, or having been raised differently…if we can’t identify the point at which misunderstanding first takes place, go back and try to get on the same path together again, then we probably lose track of each other down the road. That’s what I hope you and I can do, dude, and we’ll never be able to do it if we don’t discuss issues honestly, care about where each other is at the moment, and see value to ourselves, as a team and individually, by growing together in “The Truth.” That’s what Jesus called Himself…not “A” truth, but “The” truth. That’s what I want, and have an inner feeling, based on the time you spend on this website, when you could be doing other things,… THAT is what causes me to believe you are quite possibly an honest seeker, and THAT because the heavenly Father just may be drawing you to Himself. If you fool ME…big deal…I’m no big shot that you could boast over having made a fool of. If you’re only fooling yourself, your loss will be immeasurable,…IF there is a God…IF there is an eternity.
I MAY be a simpleton, and you MAY be a hate filled unbeliever out to do as much hurt as you can to the cause of Christ. May neither be the case.
Your’s was the first response I ever got to a blog…am I using the right word(?), over on the “page”(?)…is that the correct term(?), (Archive: November 2006 on “Baptism”). I was SO filled with excitement and joy when you responded to what I had written with: “What a relief!” I honestly thought you had understood something important for the first time, and I was so happy. As time has passed, I’ve “caught on” to the sarcasm, but that’s alright. Until I realize that you’re a deliberate enemy of the cause, Ill try again to share the joy of Truth with you, as we’re able to agree on what that is. If you’re just playing me for a chump, then you will no doubt be the ultimate loser. In the meantime let me lay my “heart” on the table, and if you’re insincere, perhaps some other reader will receive some sort of blessing from the effort. “…Your labor is not in vain in the Lord” (1Cor.15:58).
You may be a Doctor of Theology using a technique of shock to elicit reaction or introspection. I don’t know with whom or what I’m dealing here. The “handle”, dude, could imply youth, insincerity, a deception…who knows? I think the safe bet for me, at this moment, is to come down on the side of caution and sincerity, just in case you are honest and a genuinely nice fellow. The last thing I would want to do would be offend genuine child like sincerity.
One other thought arises in my consciousness. It seems I recall encountering a comment or two you had submitted in response to others who were not employing standard English grammar in their typing technique, and if I recall correctly, it seems you may have employed the same style. If that thought is accurate, and you have the ability to compose a proper communique, but are tended to be all things to all people, a chameleon, then even that may come out in the wash, but on the whole, if I feel led to continue a dialogue with you, not knowing with whom I’m dealing, I’ll probably reserve in the back of my mind, the reality that you personally may not be the entity of significance with whom I am taking the time and effort to communicate. I’ll probably address a multitude, and hope you get swept along in the tide.
For better, or for worse…let us begin, and in true Jeff fashion…”To God be the glory.”
With so much time devoted to the prologue, propriety no doubt dictates that I address myself to no more than the initial issue that “dawned” on me at the restaurant this morning (12-05-08). I refer to comment # 30 of 12-04-08. “YOU” portrayed the “oil” in one figure, and “I” in another. Are we, at this hour, still of opposing points of view therewith, or has a synthesis been reached? In this one sided foremat of communication, there is little reason to proceed too far until we know, or not, that we have agreement.
I have shared printed copies of our ongoing dialogue with several locals including a waitress at the restaurant of choice. This morning I referred her to dude, and your reference to the figure for the oil in the virgins lamps. Her response to me was interesting in her choice of words. She said: “Who…do you think the oil was?” Not “what”, but who, or “whom” do you think…?
I responded: “Jesus.” You might say Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of Jesus…with the Godhead it’s difficult to go wrong.
She smiled, said: “that’s right”, and walked away.
Now, it seems obvious to me that you may probably have understood THAT point of view having reached your present age, but there is a slight possibility you may not, so let me assume nothing. If you are familiar with that orthodox position and disagree, can you explain, scripturally, on what basis you reject that perception?
Now, concerning the preciousness of the “oil” to which you allude in Matthew chapter 25. If it was personal salvation, which is nontransferable, rather than the gospel, it was obviously too precious and rare to share with those “fellow souls to whom we are to be in service.”
What “service” do you and I require from other “fellow souls” seeking to “obtain” their own “righteousness”, for it is through “righteous living”, and “services” performed that you say these precious “drops” are “obtained”. not “received” (Jn.1:16). What “services” are you rendering, dude? Which am I receiving?
It is the RARITY, not the QUALITY of the “commodity”, not free “grace”, which WE “Obtained ‘drop by drop’ through righteous living” that constitutes its preciousness, according to your direct quote. Mister dude, whoever you are, if there is ANY “righteousness” in THAT undertaking, it is corrupted human self-righteousness, not God’s, and He says: “There is none that doeth good, no not one” (Rom.3:12).
Well, by your own profession we’re going to have to make one exception in your case, and if I acknowledge that exception, I’m very likely to fall at your feet in awesome adoration, because I can’t honestly see any difference in yourself and the glory the Bible ascribes to God alone. You must be God, Dude (with a capital D). Are you Dude, or are you Gude?
The suffering and endurance to which you have previously alluded…”Is that experienced as a result of the indefinite time it takes to ‘obtain’ this ‘commodity’, or is it THAT excruciating to perform these ’services’ for our ‘fellow souls’?” If one can loose these precious drops (self obtained salvation” for which Jesus died to provide this “glorious” opportunity), how many years does a “fellow soul” have to endure “Christianity” before he has enough to safely await the arrival of the “bridegroom”? It becomes obvious that THIS brand of salvation is of far too great treasure to share with our fellow souls,…”In an instant, if it were possible at all, (to) give that to someone else.” It’s not salvation that men present their fellow souls, but the gospel. Holy Spirit has not relinquished His job of applying the blood of Christ to the Elect . . . . soul by soul. Since you contend salvation is a “process” obtained, “drop by drop”, and the time to do so is so indefinite, it is obvious one can never experience any ASSURANCE to which the apostles and Christ allude “verse by verse”, that we have “obtained” enough to do the job. THIS “‘gospel’ of ’salvation’” makes the orthodox position of Christ’s finished work in shedding his precious blood, “drop by drop” look better all the time. This particular brand of “Christianity” sounds like a most disagreeable offer you’re making us, dude. “Where’s The Joy?” All I hear is “Beef.”
The gospel of Christ which Paul proclaimed at great expense to himself is of an entirely different nature than the one you have offered up, dude. Not once, however, do I recall his complaining or boasting of the endurance or suffering for FELLOW “souls” (make that FELLOW sinners) he experienced. He refers us to the FACT of those experiences, to which he refers as “light affliction”, but I never did, nor do I now understand him to be implying that he, thereby, was “obtaining, drop by drop” eternal salvation from his sinful nature (2Cor.4:15-18). THAT…his sinful nature…I do hear him lament, and the more so, after his redemption…the closer God drew him to Himself (Rom.7:18; Eph.3:8; 1Tim.1:15).
Now don’t take personal offense at these observations, because there is no personal offense intended on my part, but the principle of logic you’re extolling is totally antibiblical, or am I missing something? I want you on “our” side dude, or I wouldn’t be sitting here at 3:18 A.M. reasoning with you thus. I want to be your friend, or fellow soul…I think. Let me think about that a little longer.
Do you see the total illogic of the illustration or “gospel” you are teaching, dude? Don’t be too embarrassed or ashamed to cast it in the dumpster where it belongs, admit your need of Christ Jesus as your total and complete SAVIOR, not ASSISTANT, and supplicate to Jesus as did Bartimaeus, and the rest of the elect. I can still believe you’re one of us, dude…just shy of redemption. Afraid of an overwhelming sense of guilt or humiliation for your honest error? “When the Devil reminds you of your past, remind him of his future.”
I am very thankful to have made your acquaintance, dude, and hope and pray God may use the time He’s given us together herebelow, for His OWN glory, our edification and the expansion of His eternal kingdom. To God be ALL praise, honor and glory…now, and evermore (Isa.40:9; Eph.1:6).
Lon
December 6, 2008 at 1:18 pm |
Jeff,
So good to hear from you and dude both concerning the fact that you’re two individuals. I am missing Will’s input, and would be so happy to hear from so many others.
Isn’t it great to peruse dudes comment @ 1:26 this morning? What joy…what absolute joy!
Thanks for allowing us to sound these depths, and I’ll continue, the Lord and yourself willing, to take silence as permission to participate in this wonderful medium.
God bless you all . . . . Lon
December 11, 2008 at 1:29 am |
Lonnie,
I don’t have time to put everything down right now that I would like to. I have been tending to my mother as we wait for my father to pass away in his very last days here. I actually don’t have lots of time to participate in this blog with five children to raise and a business to run. I try to chime in when I get a chance, usually pretty tired like now.
But I must ask, are you saying that I am a “hate filled unbeliever out to do as much hurt as I can” if I disagree with your interpretation of the Bible? I’m not sure why you would think that from my postings. Yes, my first reply to you was sarcastic. It was my first posting to this blog and I honestly was somewhat shocked by your posting. Sorry if that offended you, but I don’t think that makes me hate filled.
I think God is a perfect judge
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Romans 2:6-11
December 11, 2008 at 5:22 pm |
Dude,
First and foremost, in this hour, let me draw along beside you in prayerful support in this period of trial through which God is most likely willing to carry you and yours, if you, in understandable exhaustion, should faint unto inability to follow where He leads.
Knowing no more about each other than either has had the opportunity to gleen from our few shared comments, and endeavoring to know your essence behind the veil “dude”, by which we identify you, leaves very little basis for PERSONAL criticism.
I can, only in partial measure, relate to you a little better by the information you’ve just shared. My dad died at 64 yrs. of age in 1979. I was 38 at the time, and now assume you must be about that age presently. Hope your mom fares reasonably well at present. Though it ultimately was for only a few days, still not knowing how much time might be required, I did quit my job to be with my mother, at her request, 24 hrs. a day.
Hope your older children may be of assistance to you at this time. That is the one measure in which I dare not imply I can relate to you, having had none.
Again, like yourself, I ran a business, or vice versa, for two decades before ending up homeless after the loss of my marriage, home, and business. About fourteen years of economic destitution followed, only finding relief in November 2003 at my mothers demise. Took me twenty years to pay the nine hundred dollars in back rent I owed on my business location when the Custom Framing business went under. I do have some bases for empathy with your present plight and shall, like I hope many others will do, hold you and your family the closer in our prayers. “The Darkest Hour Is Just Before Dawn”, Emmylou Harris. My “hour” lasted fourteen years. May yours be of less duration.
Issues and Biblical Truth are the matters before us, and neither you, I. nor anyone else on this earth is exempt from being closely examined in relation to the Biblical plumbline which must guide us all, individually.
May critics, of my love of God and fellow sinners, be silenced by the awareness that you as an individual are under no assault from me, and that you have engaged yourself in these doctrinal disputations voluntarily: disputations I’d have never sought, but which seem to have fallen out for the greater glory of God, and hopefully, similarly, to the edification of men.
If ancient history (Ps.109:3-5), and recent experiences at the local restaurant this week are any guideline, many will despise selfless, compassionate, Biblical responses to questions and spiritual issues raised, which could just as easily have been left unaddressed. Truth is of far less value to most religionist than their traditions and church association. Church association IS what most people substitute for Holy Spirit’s revelation of Biblical truth. Going to church IS the religion they mistake for Christianity. “Come to Christ” is the Bibles message, Not “Go to church.” Beware institutional idolatry.
Some sentimentalist are likely to say: “Poor dude, his dad is in a bad way…his mother…his children…his business, and this hate monger dares care more for his and their eternal welfare than their temporal. I get that as a steady diet, which only confirms prophecy of that exact response of foolish “virgins” or tares, or chaff to God’s love in man that produces an equally spotaneous love of the Truth in which we MUST worship him (Jn.4:24). Truth is not optional. It is pure rational, logical, exegetical PRINCIPLE apart from PERSONALITY favoritism or celebrity (1Cor.1:11-13).
I suspect that you engage in this activity to obtain some escape from the cares of this present world. Blank hours spent bedside, no matter how dear to oneself the afflicted is, can be blessed opportunity to focus on eternal matters. I speak from the experience of several 24 hr’s. a day hospital watches…unto the end. Correction, if in order, and Truth are certainly not to be emasculated due to your prevailing situation. If anything, they are therefore the more precious to one’s comfort.
Many people go off the deep end when dealing with totally rational issues of invisible, spiritual character and essence. This is evidenced by the necessity to include both books of Corinthians in the holy writ to combat the viseral illogic of first century Pentecostalism. While it is true that education doth not spiritual enlightenment procure, it is no less true that the “ignorance and mental simplicity” to which the poorly or totally uneducated make their plea of privilege, avail aught either. Therein lie two false hopes. “What hath Athens (up town, or down town) to do with Jerusalem?”
Your inquiry is totally ill conceived as to whether or not I am saying you are a ” ‘hate filled undeliever out to do as much hurt as (you) can’ if (you) disagree with (my) ‘interpretation’ of the Bible?”. What I meant is totally understandable by what I said. We’re refering to the forth paragraph of my comment of December 06, 2008.
The pure and simple fact is that the world has ever been posessed of an overabundance of hate filled unbelievers out to destroy Christianity. It was for that very cause that Stalin was handed the reins of Communism in the USSR and approximately 60 million people were exterminated over several decades. Makes the cause celeb in mid century Germany pale by comparrison does it not? We’re talking a ten to one ratio here, but guess who the bad guy’s were in this “Holocost?” Ten to one, but not so much as a whimper. Does the picture begin to come into focus. Read Wurmbrands “Tortured For Christ.”
The fact is that you, to date, are a dukes mixture of humanism with an irratic sprinkling of Bible quotes falsely exegeted to promote the plan Satan implemented in the Garden of Eden, which was the deification of man.
In a created universe GOD secures the predestined end by foreordaining each step, sovereignly guiding each cause and effect as the means to the appointed end.
Under the delusion of a Big Bang Universe, natural selection fosters the freewill theory, giving birth to evolution, The Ascent Of Man, and ultimately….the humanistic deification of mankind.
With total disregard to whom either of us is, your hit and miss “theology” is condemned by God in Galatians 1:8 & 9. Paul’s remarks at vrs. 7 are interesting: “…There be some that trouble you, and would PERVERT THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST.” Ultimately, who and what we are is made manifest by that which we endorse. As a high school buddy said back in the late 50’s: “If someone was preaching a man focused sermon across the street, and there was a dog fight taking place across town…I’d go watch the dog fight.”
By your own confession you’re presently too strapped for time to continue “stacking brush” (scriptures) in numerical order to absolutely no avail. You lack the key of interpretation, therefore the entirety of the Bible is so much wasted effort. Maybe radio controlled cars, planes or boats would be a less damning activity.
I find too much comfort in the company of men like Ortlund, Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Luther, Calvin, Beza, Knox, Augustine and Tertullian, with their focus on the Doctrines of Grace, and the Sovereignty and Glory of God, to waste another minute of my life looking for merit in myself, a sinner.
The apostle Paul speaking: “Yet because of FALSE ‘brothers’ secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery—to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you (Gal. 2:4&5).
The standard mode of operation when a message is authoritatively discredited, is to divert attention from the message to the messenger, and shoot for popularity, celebrity, sympathy…whatever. We don’t know each other, and that is irrelevant to the issue, which is TRUTH. Holy Spirit will accomplish His appointed reconstruction project of humanity, and not a single grain of wheat shall perish. Not a single tare shall escape. God is in his heaven, and all is well.
We are limited in options at our disposal for emphasising points when recording our comments in the window provided hereat. We lack the options of bold print, underlining or italicizing. For THAT reason I employed upper case type to stress the word “MAY”, both as I refered to you, and to myself. “I MAY be a simpleton, and you MAY be….” The second sentence seems definitive…”MAY neither be the case.” The obvious and simple answer to your question is…”No.”
I was, however a “hate filled unbeliever” for sixteen years after the absolute lie my parents, the church and society in general foisted on me concerning this godless christmas idolatry to which we are…again… being subjected this month. With a child’s ‘faith’ I ‘believed’ all three aspects of society regarding Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. The ultimate revelation of truth concerning Easter Bunny wiped me out. The eventual truth regarding Santa Claus lent itself more toward resentment of having now been played for a fool twice, and loss of respect for those perpetrating those lies on the critically important principle of faith and belief.
How do we believe in God? By FAITH. What a device of the Devil to bring up a child in the way he or she should NOT go, then reveal the lie, thereby destroying the very basis of faith and belief by which we must come before Him in supplication for consideration….and THAT in the name of Christ! “There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Mt.13:37-43).
The New Testament absolutely prohibits observance of such Other Gospel “atoning merit” sacraments as circucision, dietary restrictions, vows, baptisms, FESTIVALS etc. etc., adnauseam. These foolish practices, when given reverential regard and religious homage unto atoning merit are, according to the apostle Paul, nothing but idolatry. An absolute spit in the face of Christ’s finished work in obtaining our salvation, not our assistance.
Galatians 4:10 & 11 (ESV)…”You observe days…I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.”
At Colossians 2:16-23 Paul, although having been judged an heretic by the non-elect Jewish leaders for relegating circumcision to its obsoleted station in history, again illustrates that we are not to allow the institutional religious crowd to judge us, or inflict such unprofitable cerimonialism on us, post Christ.
Old Testament feasts and festivals prefigured Christ, and observed after His fulfilling incarnation constitute rejection of Himself as the Christ of God. Ditto animal sacrifices.
Politically and judicially, before an arrest is carried out by the authorities, a “WARRANT” must be issued authorizing that activity. So with activity involving worship of Sovereign God. Religious activity absent such warrant is idolatry. Idolatry is absolutely forbidden.
Christ warranted the Lords Supper, commemorating his vicarious death. Nowhere is their Biblical warrant given for observance of His birth, or “Easter” as holy days. These are of pagan Roman Catholic origin some three hundred years or so post Christ. Never did the apostles or Christ celebrate his birth. Hallmark and Wal-Mart were far in the future.
Emporer Constantine, after adopting Christianity as Imperial Rome’s state religion continued conquering Gentile nations around Rome. As a concession to their tribute to Rome their pagan religious rituals were left intact, but renamed with the closest Christian similitude. Thus did todays pagan religious stew called christmass evolve. It is of totally nonbiblical derivation. It is idolatry, period.
God’s pinchant for specificity is profound in establishing that which He, not human institutional “authority”, deems acceptable to His worship. Not only did God specify the month of the year for the observance of Passover, for example, but he gave the exact day, and get this!…He even specified the time of that day to celebrate the feast. Read it for yourself at Lev.23:5.
In light of that degree of exactness, isn’t the total obscurity in which He cloaked Christ’s birth very telling? The proverbial blind man can “see” what is obvious to the Elect of God.. The religious chaff will continue to perpetrate their foolish, worthless religiosity untill they are ushered to the left side of the throne, and even then will protest their “good works” as qualifying currency. God doesn’t deny they did good works, he simply casts them off with the observation: “That wasn’t the price required for sins penalty. Go!” Paul, at Col.2:23, calls all such foolishness… “Self-Made Religion” or “Do It Yourself Salvation.” He admits its pretty to look at, but has nothing to do with what’s wrong with us.
“But” many ignorantly protest, “We’re not under law but grace, thus free to improvise.” That’s foolish. All’s the more reason, being released from laws chains in Christ, to respond spontaneously, rather than legalistically and begrudgingly, to the Spirit of His law which Christ came not to abolish, but fulfill. If you love me, keep my commandments (Jn.14:15&21). We obey not as under, but as above the law’s penalty of death, for the law of God is holy and joyous once were dead to sin in Christ. Since sin can no longer use Gods holy law to slay us, the law becomes the joyous nature of God written within us, and our new nature conforms to His will instinctively. Christmas is not His will. You can’t put Christ back into something He was never in.
Dr. W.R. Crews has a concise booklet available at a cost of four dollars titled “Should A Christian Celebrate Christmas?” It and many others are listed at “The Awakening Hour.org” This booklet is worth far more than the asking price. It will, however, prove nothing to traditionalist and unwise “virgins.” The Bible doesn’t.
A definitive and exhaustive treatment of the subject is covered, and that for free, by Presbyterian Pastor Brian Schwertley on the internet. Five easy steps will make you an authority on the subject:
1. Google: swrb.com
2. Click: Still Waters Revival Books, FREE and Discounted Reformation.
3. On last line of green print, Click: SWRB Search Engine.
4. Immediately under: “Still Waters Revival Books Complete Web Site Search”
Type in: Regulative principle worship christmas…and click: Go.
5. Click #1 and read, print, distribute, add to your “Favorites.”
Pastor Schwertley states that he’s been asked: “If the church will lie about His birth….(Christ-Mass), why would they not lie about His resurrection?” Good question. The answers are exhaustive, and profound.
By ones middle teens, back in the mid-fifties anyway, young folks were begining to think for themselves somewhat, and the educational system was encouraging that process. Those two factors combined with the normal weaning process of maturing, one day (age 16) produced a revolutionary thought in my mind. I had been played for an absolute chump twice, and now they say…”Okay, you haven’t seen Jesus either, but ‘believe’ this fraud also.”
“Ha! You’ve played me for an absolute fool twice…Now you can take this Jesus malarkey where ever you can dispose of it, but not here…not again. The very principle by which we comprehend the reality of God had been destroyed in the intelligence, reasoning and educational arenas of a young mans life.
Like C.S. Lewis, for approx. the same period of time, and until about the same age, I was an avowed “hate filled” atheist. Sixteen wasted years as a result of this godless Easter and Christmass travesty. And that with total disregard for, or ignorance of, Rev. 21:8 which clearly states that: “…All liars, SHALL have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
So much for my parent’s, the church’s, and society’s regard for the Bible.
Just before God began drawing me to Himself (was it ‘71 or ‘72?) I was ready to pick up where Hitler left off. I so hated Christian Religion and Semitic Supremecy that I was contemplating the unthinkable. Faith was a superstition for a bunch of ignorant, uneducated, hilbillies. A crutch for people too pathetic to use their minds to cope with the realities of life. Disgusting minions for the equally disgusting preachers that promoted that ignorance, at a comfortable living for themselves.
Perfect love casteth out fear (1Jn.4:16-18). Events surrounding the death of an uncle at that time, prompted a reinvestigation of Scriptures, and faith finally, after a long hybernation, began to reemerge in my maturing mind. God pulled me back from the brink of a life of horrible crime, and replaced the unbelief and hate, which the lie and IDOLATRY OF CHRISTMASS had instilled, with peace and love.
Now, without knowing all the particulars of a certain young mans case, let me refer the reader to the comment left by Al at the web page: “Joel Nederhood on Depart Out.” Go back up to the “Archives” window toward the top of this page and click on: December 2007. Several comments down from the end of the article, Al describes a sons hate which is all too familiar to yours truly. I left a comment after Al’s message, and continue praying for his son till this day, and hope others will join me in this concern for a young man who may be Elect, but yet uncalled or redeemed. Remember Al and his wife also, please.
Now dude, your agreeing with me, or anyone else for that matter, is not the issue. The issue is THE Truth. Your theology at your comment of December 04, 2008 is purely and simply unchristian, period. Whether you agree or disagree with ME is irrelevant. That absurdity will not avail in the final distribution of mankind.
Strangely, your next comments or so totally reversed your previous position without any explanation for the 180 degree pivot to face gospel truth. That’s puzzeling. Anyone would be expected to be filled with praise to have “seen” the orthodox truth, after the horindous errors perpetrated on 12-04-08.
For logic to prevail, we need some explanation for the diametrically opposed positions in these back to back offerings, and that without so much as a whimper as to the reason for the dichotomy.
December 11, 2008 at 5:41 pm |
Don’t ask me how, but tragically the “Submit Comment” button must have been touched accidentally. Boy! Virtually no proof reading has been done on the text above, and the pitiful phonetic method I employ in my initial draft is humiliating to be thus exposed to public view.
Oh well, my feet of clay are hereby exposed and everyone can gauge their superiority accordingly. The “kind of spirit” will possibly benefit from the meaning, and “mine adversaries” have a treasure trove of ammo.
Even so…
December 11, 2008 at 7:51 pm |
Lonnie,
I feel I must intevene at this juncture as the “moderator”. Recently, you wrote the following comments to Dude:
“You [Dude] lack the key of interpretation, therefore the entirety of the Bible is so much wasted effort.”
“You as an individual are under no assault from me.”
One of the principle aims of this site is to generate dialogue and spark biblically-based conversation. You’ve made quite a number of comments since 13 August — and while I thank you for the time and effort, I do sense an increasing amount of rhetoric and less charity of spirit with your postings. I say that not to be antagonistic toward you, but to be honest before all.
I see nothing in Dude’s comments, save his initial response on 12 November (which even Dude would probably agree was a tad sarcastic), that warrants some of your reproving tone.
Make no mistake, I disagree with Dude’s theology. But I tried to voice my disagreement with Christian love and consideration (25 Nov). I haven’t sensed as much of that in some of your recent statements.
– Jeff
December 12, 2008 at 12:01 am |
The gospel does indeed offend.
Paul was received with as much charity, and at the end of his tenure , in 2Tim.1:15, observed to young Timothy that :”all they which are in Asia be turned away from me…”
I’m in good company eternally and like Spurgeon or Paul, ever the more willing to be divested of this backwater of religious toleration. The closer anyone draws to the magnificent glory of the Sovereign God, the less acceptable they become to earth’s religious community…and the less they care.
Absolutely nothing has proceeded forth from me of a hurtful nature to the individual in question. Mature love is intolerable in this half bakede era of THE DESCENT OF MAN. Toleration and religious mediocrity are leading this world into the very foreordained lukewarm state that will shortly now bring this all to its sudden end. Thanks be to God.
Be careful Jeff, that this website doesn’t become your religion. “Hits” totaling 1/2 the capacity of a modern football stadium, or even several football stadiums would be a poor trade off for the truth you had the God given opportunity to sow in the global field. This is an earthly commodity, and will conform to the (ab)norm. “Give us Barabbas!”
I experienced just that in the 70’s and 80’s when sincere spiritual hunger and thirst for God in Christ was taken captive through the back door by enslavement to church authority. Vows, rules and regulations unto unintentional, but no less enslaving idolatry, become, or rather ARE deceptive self-righteousness, and THAT is exactly what God through Paul is warning us of in Col.2:16-23.
While attending the Mennonite Church, they ever used the luxury nature of the Custom Picture framing business I was in to keep me at arms length. They have a printing operation in Kansas, and produce and/or distribute a sizeable quantity of religious publication.
In an effort to conform my income to a more church accepted medium, I began stocking, even many of their own publications with the goal of converting my business to a Christian Book Store. Imagine the shock when they then began to caution me against “The Commercialized Christ.”
For some years now I have realized the wisdom of that advice. In a mushy, human sentimental desire to be all things to all people (religions), and disdain to risk offending anyone, the narrow gate is padlocked, and a detour sign directs tomorrows customers to the broad gate. After all, it IS religious, and requires no…and dude will love this one…”Endurance”, till Christ’s return.
When the bills come due and a check is about to bounce at the bank, proprietors of whatever aspect of “The Commercialized Christ” one finds himself engaged in are probably going to compromise TRUTH for the expedient. Churches have for long now been enslaving themselves in that same principle with ever expanding indebtedness for building programs etc.. You’ve gotta pay those bills, so any comer is embraced, and “justified.” Institutions full of tares are exactly the state of institutionalism today.
I told Gary within the past several days that your relative silence on the issues of profundity addressed here, in the past month, no doubt foretold the message to which I now respond. It was inevitable, therefore no surprise or offense. The message is not mine, and the admonition to “Rejoice and be exceeding glad:” (Mt.5:12) is indeed the comfort He intended it to be, as is: “And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name” (Acts 5:41).
A popular saying is: “Diplomacy is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.” I feel like a vacation.
Dude has been given the opportunity to communicate with me via e-mail, and he, and anyone else with Christian intent is welcome to do so. I’m, for a week or so now, investigating the wisdom of setting up my own website, but the leading is not that strong at the hour.
Indepth truth is not a commodity for the masses of religiosity, so I leave you, my dear fellows in sin, with nothing but encouragement in your quest to know Christ, and Him alone as man’s only Lord and Savior.
“May His glory be our only desire.” Amen. (Dr. Raymond C. Ortlund Jr.)
Lon
December 12, 2008 at 2:22 am |
Lonnie,
There is no contradiction in the posting of 12-4-08. I did say that we can’t save ourselves and that we need the Grace of God. If this is the contradiction to which you are referring, I don’t get it. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t something that we must do. It is not “assistance”. It is our end of the covenant. A covenant is a sacred agreement between God and a person or group of people. God sets specific conditions, and He promises to bless us as we obey those conditions. When we choose not to keep covenants, we cannot receive the blessings, and in some instances we suffer a penalty as a consequence of our disobedience.
If this was the contradiction you were talking about, I hope this clears it up.
December 12, 2008 at 8:23 am |
you can lead a horse to water , but you cant make him drink. honor praise and glory to GOD in JESUS CHRIST!
December 16, 2008 at 12:12 am |
Lonnie,
Sorry for the delay in my response here, but I’ve been pretty busy lately and haven’t had a chance to post. I can assure you, there are no games being played here, I’m for real as well as everyone else on this blog. I thank and praise God for this blogsite!