We encourage those who ardently follow those who teach annihilation to read the posting carefully. Scriptural interpretation comes not from our human intellect but from the illuminating power of the Holy Spirit…Who is not the Author of confusion. Jeff and Cindy
We are indebted to Dr. Ken Matto for this thorough and thoughful monograph on the biblical reality of the eternal nature of hell.
There is an old teaching that has begun to spring up in the Christian community under the guise of “that’s not my God.” That teaching is the doctrine of annihilation. Basically it states that when God will judge the unbeliever at the last day at the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20, they will be destroyed completely or annihilated. This means there will be no eternal punishment for their sins. It means after they are found guilty, they will cease to exist. A person, who believed in this teaching, stated that the bodies will burn forever but they will be dead bodies without any knowledge of punishment. We will see if that statement is correct by doing a scripture search.
Such cult groups as Jehovah Witnesses deny the existence of hell and support this teaching. So in order to get around the doctrine of hell that is taught in so many places in Scripture, a new teaching was needed and that was annihilation. Their major premise stems from the idea that the result of sin is physical death and once a person is dead, they are dead. Some within this belief system believe that there will be a resurrection and every unbeliever will stand before God and give an account for their life and when they are judged, will be annihilated, never to face any type of judicial penalty for their sins. This is a convenient doctrine for anyone who wants to live a major sinful life on earth without accountability. Can you imagine life on earth with the same type of law? A person is found guilty of a crime and is never punished for it. When investigating a teaching like annihilation, it behooves us to ask a precluding statement. Is physical death the ultimate payment for sin? First, we must examine that teaching before we go on to the essence of the teaching of eternal punishment.
Is Physical Death the Ultimate Payment for Sin?
When dealing with the doctrine of annihilation (doa – no pun intended) we must see if the Bible teaches physical death as the final payment for sin. As we start I want us to look at three passages of Scripture that deal with resurrections done by the Lord Jesus Christ and then we must ask a very penetrating question.
(John 11:43-44 KJV) And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. {44} And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
(Luke 7:14-15 KJV) And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. {15} And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.
(Mark 5:35, 41-42 KJV) While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue’s house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further? {41} And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise. {42} And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.
The three passages detail for us three individual resurrections of people who died. The question I have concerning these three resurrections is, since they all died physically, were all three raised to a sinless life since all their sins were now paid for. After all, they died physically and if physical death is the penalty for sin, then according to annihilist belief, they all atoned for their own sins, which means there were three perfect, sinless people walking on earth at the time of Christ. Let us look at one Old Testament resurrection while we are on the subject.
(2 Ki 13:21 KJV) And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
Here was the fourteenth miracle Elisha requested from God before his death (2 Kings 2:9). A man was resurrected upon touching the bones of Elisha. This miracle took place about 800 BC which means that this person, who physically died, also atoned for his own sins before the cross. Now let us attend to the greatest of all physical deaths that affected millions of believers.
(John 19:30 KJV) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Now the question of the ages: did the physical death of the Lord Jesus Christ constitute the full atonement for all those He came to save? Before you answer that question, we have to look at that verse very carefully. Did the Lord Jesus say “It is finished” before He died or after He died? Uh oh, He said it before He died, which means the atonement was complete before He physically died, and the atonement was on a higher level than mere physical death.
Now what about the other four resurrections we looked at? Did they atone for themselves by dying physically? What saith the Scripture?
(Rom 3:24 KJV) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(Gal 2:16 KJV) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
These two verses (among many) explicitly state that it is impossible for any person to atone for themselves by any type of work, and that word “any” also includes physical death. Therefore, according to the Scriptures atonement for sin cannot be made by physical death. In fact, physical death is either the portal to heaven for the believer or to await the judgment if you are an unbeliever. Salvation is determined on this side of the grave not because of it. If a person can atone for their sins by means of physical death, then indeed, Hell will not need to exist because there will be no one there, except the Devil and His angels. What does the Bible teach about the doctrine of continuing or eternal punishment? Does the Bible endorse annihilation or does it teach a continuing punishment for sin?
The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment
When exploring this most apocalyptic doctrine, I want to break it down into three sub-sections: 1) The Symbol 2) The Parable 3) The Duration. We will see that in the Bible there is no such teaching as the Doctrine of Annihilation. Some groups which hold to this doctrine are: Christian Science, Spiritualism, Jehovah’s Witness, Armstrongism, Mormons, Eastern Mysticism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Evolution, and probably a slew of others.
The Symbol – Gehenna
In the New Testament the word “hell” is translated from the Greek word “geenna” or more commonly translated “gehenna” except for eleven places. Gehenna is derived from two Hebrew words, “gay” meaning a valley, and “Hinnom” which is a valley south of Jerusalem named after an unknown person but together it is known as the Valley of Hinnom. To better understand why Jesus used this term, a history of the valley is needed.
During the time when the nation of Israel was divided into two states being the northern and southern kingdom, the Valley of Hinnom was a place where apostate Jews offered their children as burnt offerings to the false god Molech. Molech was the chief deity of the Moabites. (Jeremiah 7:30-31; 19:2-6) Israel was expressly forbidden to worship any foreign god.
(Lev 18:21 KJV) And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
Manasseh, a king of Judah was involved in this worship. At the end of the divided kingdom age, Judah went into captivity with the Babylonians and the Valley of Hinnom became a garbage dump that contained all kinds of putrid trash and foul garbage from Jerusalem.
This dump became an excellent symbol for Hell since there were literal fires burning continuously and must have emanated a nauseating odor. With this short foundational understanding of the history of gehenna, let us look at the words of Christ on this subject. We will examine each verse individually to gain a better view of this awful and real place. I will focus on the words that deal directly with hell.
We find the word “geenna” in the following 12 verses: Matt. 5:22; 29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15; 23:33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. The word is always a noun which means a person, place, or thing.
The Parable
(Luke 16:19-31 KJV) There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: {20} And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, {21} And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. {22} And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; {23} And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. {24} And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. {25} But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. {26} And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. {27} Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: {28} For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. {29} Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. {30} And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. {31} And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Here we read one of the most famous parables in the Bible. It speaks of the rich man who represents those of the world and Lazarus (which means help of God) represents the believers who are the outcasts and the offscouring of the earth. (1 Cor 4:13 KJV) “Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.” The word “offscouring” actually means “scum.” We see that the rich man was stating that he was in real torment in the flame. Here is an accurate description of Hell. The rich man had all his faculties and knowledge of his life on earth as we see he mentions his five brothers. The true believer will be in bliss while those who do not become saved will be tormented consciously in flame for all eternity.
The Duration
Here is the essence of this study and I want to focus on this section more intently than I did on the symbol and parable. The Doctrine of Annihilation is totally antithetical to the Bible’s teaching on the eternal duration of punishment. We will see this clearly as we look at some Scriptures which reveal everlasting punishment instead of instant annihilation.
EVERLASTING FIRE
(Mat 18:8 KJV) Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Here the Bible is very clear that the fire will be everlasting. “pur to aiwnion” (pur to aionion) which translated means “the eternal fire.” The punishment will be eternal.
(Mat 25:41 KJV) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
This verse is teaching the same thing which Matthew 18:8 is teaching with the same Greek words, an eternal fire.
EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT
(Mat 25:46 KJV) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
This verse teaches the same truth except there is a different word used instead of fire and it is the word “”kolasis” which means a judicial penalty, punishment, or chastisement. It used in 1 John 4:18 where it is translated “torment.” If a person is annihilated or ceases to exist, then how could they experience an eternal punishment.
EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION
(2 Th 1:9 KJV) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
This almost seems like an oxymoron for how can one be destroyed eternally? However, this is a word which is defined by the context in which it is used. The term is used in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” The term for destruction is “oleqron” (olethron) which means a “destruction, ruin, or death.” So there is no conflict in using this word because in 1 Thess. 5:3, the destruction is sudden but in 2 Thess 1:9 the destruction lasts eternally. The first, destruction is on earth but the second destruction is in Hell.
ETERNAL DAMNATION
(Mark 3:29 KJV) But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
The words here may also be translated “eternal judgment.” This shows that the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit carries with it the penalty of eternality under judgment.
ETERNAL FIRE
(Jude 1:7 KJV) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Here we see a great example of what the fires of hell are going to be like. All those who are not found in Christ will suffer eternal fire. Sodom and Gomorrha showed us that God’s judgment will be swift but the penalty He prescribes will be eternal which was prefigured by the fires that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha.
TORMENT
(Mat 8:29 KJV) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? T
his is an interesting verse. The demons knew who Christ was and are definitely cognizant of the fact they will face torment after they are thrown into hell on the last day. Notice the phrase “before the time” because they know the time is coming when they shall be cast into hell eternally.
(Rev 14:11 KJV) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Now here is a passage which states explicitly that their torment will be suffered forever. The word torment is “basanismos” (basanismos) which means torture or torment and is peculiar to the Book of Revelation. Now if a person is annihilated and ceases to exist, then how would that person suffer torment for eternity? The answer is simple, it cannot. If something does not exist or ceases to exist then they simply cannot experience anything good or bad.
HELL FIRE
(Mark 9:43-48 KJV) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {44} Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. {45} And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {46} Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. {47} And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: {48} Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Here are some of the most ominous verses in Scripture which teach that anyone unsaved will be cast into hell’s fire and that fire will never be quenched. The word is “sbennumi” (sbennumi) which means “to extinguish, suppress or subdue.” This fire will never be subdued or lessened.
Notice also the verses speak of a worm. Jesus is speaking of the worm in context of the Gehenna garbage dump in which human bodies were sometimes thrown into. The term “worm ” may also be translated maggots and the Gehenna fires gave the maggots an unending source of food. So the sinner in hell also gives the fire an unending source of fuel since it will take all eternity to pay for their sins and this is why the fire can never go out. The worm could have two possible definitions or maybe more but I would like to offer two. Keep in mind that whatever this worm is, it will never die which means it is eternal and not annihilated.
1) Everyone who is cast into hell will have all the lusts and desires they had on earth, but will never be able to have them fulfilled. For example, if a person consistently lusts after sex, they may have the strongest desire for sex in hell but that craving will never be satisfied.
2) They will have full recall of all the times they heard the gospel and mocked and rejected it. This worm might be the recollections of those mockings and rejections. The lusts and recollections will eat away at a person as a lion eats its prey. Remember how fully cognizant the rich man was in hell, his senses and his recall were not diminished in the least.
SUMMARY
We have looked at a sufficient amount of Scripture that completely refutes the idea that there will be annihilation after judgment. The truth of Scripture reveals that after the Great White Throne judgment the unbeliever will be required by penalty of God’s law to pay for their own sins in an eternity in hell and that hell will be a real place of torment away from the presence of the Lord. If you are reading this and you are relying on no eternal punishment because your leaders have told you this, then they have lied to you.
To God Be The Glory!
December 17, 2007 at 11:00 pm |
Does Dr. Ken Matto believe an aborted baby will be burning in hell forever?
December 19, 2007 at 11:14 am |
Sean, does being aborted exempts a soul from the teaching that we are all born spiritually dead (unsaved)?
Jeff & Cindy, this article is excellent. Thanks.
December 19, 2007 at 11:17 am |
Sean, one more thing. Think about the Great Flood of Noah’s time and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Were babies and pregnant women excluded from those judgments?
December 19, 2007 at 5:07 pm |
I agree with Sylvan. God says that he destroyed every living creature and thing. He never said he excluded babies or woman.
December 20, 2007 at 9:25 pm |
“Sean, does being aborted exempts a soul from the teaching that we are all born spiritually dead (unsaved)?”
No it doesn’t, that was my point.
December 20, 2007 at 9:54 pm |
Jeff and Cindy said :Basically it states that when God will judge the unbeliever at the last day at the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20, they will be destroyed completely or annihilated.”
So what’s the different from destroyed completly or annihilated? I thought annigilated means destroyed completely.
December 20, 2007 at 10:08 pm |
This article proves nothing. The biggest reason I don’t listen to these types of articles is because they never refute any of the scriptures that prove annihilation. I didn’t see any of the major ones mentioned one time. Here they are. Please explain how these possibly teach eternal torment.
Malachi 4:1,3 For behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I do this, saith the lord of hosts.
Psalm 68:2 As wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
Psalm 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be.
Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume, into smoke they shall consume away.
Psalm 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.
Isaiah 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble. The fire shall burn them, they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame. There shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it.
Psalm 92:7 When the wicked spring up as the grass, and when all the workers of inquity do flourish, it is that they shall be destroyed forever.
Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it unto my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Now somebody please explain the above verse to me. So God called it an abomination for these people to torture their children with fire as a sacrifice to Molech, but now you say he will torture billionsof unsaved people forever with fire. Why did he say that? Does this mean He lied? Does he contradict himself?
And Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable. It’s not meant to be taken literally. Consider the follwong points:
1. People cannot physically enter into the bosom of another person.
2. Can someone literally burning in flames carry on a rational conversation? Why isn’t the rich man depicted as screaming in this parable?
3. Can people in Heaven in Hell talk to each other? Does this meam we’ll get to see our loved ones constantly being tortured for eternity? How could we be happy in heaven?
4. The rich man was bodily in Hell. If you dug it up, Wouldn’t his real body be in the grave?
5. Would a real burning person request only a drop of water? What about the rest of his body? If you were in that situation what would you really ask for? A drop of water or the fire department?
If someone could please take the time to explain all this I would be very grateful. That is all. Thank you for your time.
December 20, 2007 at 11:00 pm |
Hello Jessica, I can try to explain some questions, because the rest I don’t fully understand.
God says in the bible that when his elect enter heaven, he will create a whole new person. That means that they will NOT remember anything from there past life, or there loved ones, etc. He does and says this because heaven is suppose to be a happy place, he says that there will be not more sorrow and pain. Sounds nice to me, but I am sad about the whole never knowing your family part. : (
December 21, 2007 at 9:08 am |
Jessica, What kind of explanation do you need for those versus? They explain a very important truth that everlasting punishment in hell IS NOT TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE!!!! The notion that there is everlasting punishment in a place called hell is taught by theologians, its taught by teachers and pastors in the church, its taught by almost every Christian church thats existed for hundreds of years up until today! Another reason to believe YOU CAN NOT TRUST ANY CHURCH TODAY! What people in the church today need to do is find themselves a bible teachers who trust explicitly in the WORD OF GOD and not in the CHURCH!
Lizzie, If you are sad about the whole never knowing your family part of being in heaven, you may need to question yourself about who is really your GOD and what is really your relationship with GOD! Pray that GOD will give you a clear understanding of what will be your purpose in heaven if indeed HE and HE alone has chosen to save you from death, destruction and complete separation from HIM.
December 21, 2007 at 2:50 pm |
Wow, someone responded! Hi Raymond. I’m glad you agree with me. I’m posting again because I was in a hurry yesterday(forgive my spelling errors) and didn’t cover everything. I wanted to present a few more scriptures, just for reference, and ask a few more questions. I also challenge anyone who thinks they can explain these verses to step right up and share their views.
1. Dr. Matto claims Sodom and Gomorrha symbolises that God’s judgment is swift but the fires will be eternal. I wonder if he read the whole passage. They were burned to ashes; they’re not burning today. Jeremiah 17:27(NIV) also proves this: but if you do not obey me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying any load as you come through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle an unquenchable fire in the gates of Jerusalem that will consume her fortress. The fire was unquenchable because it couldn’t be put out, but it was gone after it burned everything to ashes.
2. Can someone please tell me how Ezekiel 28:18-19(Satan is annihilated) does not contradict Revelation 20:10(Satan is tormented forever)? I’m sure there must be an explanation.
3. After much searching, I think I finally the real meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man. To read more go here: http://www.thetruthabouthell.net I will give a small excerpt.
“The context of this parable reveals Jesus was talking to the Pharisees who were “lovers of money” and who “derided him” with their tongues(verse 14) . The reason Jesus spoke of the rich man asking for water on his tongue was to teach the Pharisees that their tongues were going to lead them into hell-fire. These Pharisees also believed riches were a sign of God’s favor while poverty represented His curse. Jessu exposed this false theory. At death there is a great gulf fixed which cannot be bridged. Many want to see a miracle before they will believe. Jesus said if they hear Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded though one rose from the dead. Why did Jesus use the name Lazarus? This story was a prophecy. Jesus did raise Lazarus, yet the Pharisees were not convinced and chose to put Him to death.”
Just food for thought. You can also go to http://www.thetruthabouthell.org, a similar site which is run by the same guy but worded differently. That’s all I have to say for now. Thanks for reading.
December 28, 2007 at 6:52 pm |
why do jeff and cindy keep deleting people’s comments? That’s like messed up.
January 30, 2008 at 9:19 pm |
More importantly, Mr Camping now believes that he received some special end time revelation that there is no hell. He emphatically believes in Annihilation, like the Jehova’s Witnesses. Mr Camping believes neither the Devil, his angels, or any unbelievers including Hitler, Osama Bin Laden will have any punishment in the after life. Annihilation means that the fire of Hell has an end and is quenched.
However the Bible teaches:
In Mark 9:
43)And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44)Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45)And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46)Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47)And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48)Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
If we are to believe the Bible, it says the fire is not quenched, annihilation means that the fire IS QUENCHED. The worm dieth not means that the curse does not end, and there is no death.
Revelation 19
1)And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2)For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3)And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
GOD IS BLINDING MR CAMPING, NOT REVEALING NEW TRUTH TO HIM. MR CAMPING IS PRIDEFUL AND UNREPENTED, THEREFORE GOD IS SENDING HIM STRONG DELUSION. ANYONE WHO NOW BELIEVES THAT THERE IS NO HELL, IS A FOLLOWER OF A MAN, AND NOT GOD, AND PROBABLY IS NOT SAVED.
jimbbbbb@gmail.com
January 31, 2008 at 5:18 pm |
Jessica I am with you, those who would disprove anhilation seem to conveniently avoid the scriptures like the ones you have cited as well as Obadiah 16 and Zaphaniah 1:3.
February 1, 2008 at 9:48 am |
GOD SAYS:
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
THE DEVIL SAYS:
Gen 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
GOD SAYS:
Matt 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels
Matt 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
HAROLD CAMPING / JEHOVAS WITNESSES / THE DEVIL SAYS:
You will surely not spend eternity in Hell Fire, Follow Harold Camping and your eyes will opened, you will know all deeper spiritual truths, and be like God, know the day and hour that the Lord will Return, and know all the Churches are apostate, and know that Annihilation is a “new revelation given to Harold Camping”
God Bless You and Open Your Eyes,
jimbbbbb@gmail.com
January 25, 2009 at 8:05 pm |
Eternal punishment or judgument is forever damned, never to be again (Death,perish,destroy,) but I don’t see any where in the bible where the sinner suffering is forever.
January 26, 2009 at 8:13 am |
Vince,
In the Bible, “perish” doesn’t mean we simply cease to exist. To be sure, that’s what most people would like for it to mean. However, letting the Bible serve as its own interpreter, we learn that “perish” means to come under constant torment forever separated from God because of our sin.
Contrary to merely ceasing to exist, Scripture instead paints a very different – and much uglier picture – likening it to a furnace of fire, outer darkness, weeping & gnashing of teeth, and unceasing misery. The nonbeliever’s misery will not end in October 2011.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Matt 25:46; Rev 14:11
January 27, 2009 at 12:21 am |
Here is what i believe God (by His mercy) has shown me in His word regarding “torment”:
(Luke 21:25, 26) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Men’s hearts failing them for fear. Does this mean their hearts stop beating. i don’t think so:
(1 John 3:18, 19) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
To love in deed and in truth assures the heart that we are saved. Those who will “see His face” on “that day” (the 5 months of torment) will know the truth then, but there will be no love of God to assure their hearts. The below verse tells us that in the absence of love there is fear. Those who have not the love of God will be in fear that day when they see the truth and realize they were left behind to experience hell on earth. The pastors will try to preach a positive spin after the rapture, but all the word of God will be is a torment to them after the door is shut. How sad that day will be.
(1 John 4:18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Fear hath torment and the torment is not having the rest that Christ gives us spiritually:
(Revelation 14:11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
They will have no rest “day nor night” and we know there will be no time keepers in the new heaven and new earth, so “day and night” is a time reference that points to the 5 months of torment when God’s judgment transitions from the churches to the whole world on may 21, 2011 to Oct. 21, 2011.
(Matthew 11:28, 29) Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
We see in the above verses that the rest is spiritual. Those who will be left behind on that day will have no rest that comes from being in Christ. They will be tormented by the fact that they missed the rapture and their doom is sealed like those who were outside the ark after the door was shut and the flood waters rose. Luke 13:25-28 describes that terrible day that is soon coming:
(Luke 13:25-28) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
After the rapture takes place and the door of salvation is shut, many Christians will be weeping in sorrow and gnashing their teeth in anger against God for not rapturing them when they shall SEE. See what? Themselves thrust out of the kingdom of God. When the rapture takes place and God’s elect are raptured up to heaven, that is when everyone left behind will know the truth. Many will most likely die in the great earthquake that will happen at that time, but they will be the lucky ones, i guess, as there will be nothing but physical suffering and spiritual torment to come for 5 months as the mercy of God and restraining power of the Holy Spirit is no more upon this earth that will be consumed in fire with everything and everyone at the very end of the world and universe. How sad that day will be. But, by God’s mercy, there is still a little time left to make your calling and election sure. May God have mercy on all reading this if it might be His will. The time left is very short. Less than 2 and 1/2 years away, now.
January 27, 2009 at 7:01 am |
Sean,
With respect, I have to say your interpretation of Rev 14:11 is inconsistent. In referencing this verse, you say “for ever and ever” equates to just five months. Arriving at that understanding of what the Bible is declaring here seems to require (at least to me) a tremendous amount of faith NOT in the divinely inspired Scripture but in the man-made teachings of Depart Out/Latter Rain/FR.
Help me understand the ramifications of your analysis of Scripture: if “forever and ever” when referring to the destiny of the unsaved has a duration of about 150 days, then how long will Christ love His elect when He declares He loves them with an “everlasting” love? Your own logic leads us to say only 5 months. That, in and of itself, should send a red flag up the proverbial flagpole.
Those who die unsaved had better not think that their torment will persist only for a finite time. It will endure “forever and ever” where the “worm dieth not” and where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth” in “outer darkness”.
Annihilationism is not of God. Satan would love to have everyone believe that sinners will simply cease to exist on the Last Day. That’s not biblical. We need to defend the true goespel and speak the truth in love to all.
To God Be The Glory (forever and ever)!
January 27, 2009 at 2:21 pm |
“Help me understand the ramifications of your analysis of Scripture: if “forever and ever” when referring to the destiny of the unsaved has a duration of about 150 days”
Well, first of all, if you do a word search of the words “gnash” and “teeth” you will find those words are related to anger, not physical pain from burning in fire.
Now, let’s look at the verse in question:
(Revelation 14:11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Assuming that’s a literal fire in a literal place called hell in the center of the earth, how can smoke from consumption rise forever and ever? Everyone knows to consume something requires fuel and then when that fuel is gone, it is no longer there, so this verse can’t be about physical consumption as we know it.
Also, as i stated above, i think the Bible shows us that the torment is not physical pain, but is emotional torment that is related to sorrow and anger, so we have two examples of literal hellfire not jiving with the facts.
Of course, there is the issue of Christ suffering the equivalent of never ending pain, which also flies in the face of logic. To say we don’t understand is a convenient way out of an impossible scenario. This isn’t about the Holy Trinity which is definitively a divine mystery that none of us can possibly figure out. No, this is about hell and what it really is according to scripture that we know was written by God in such a way that it’s very easy to be misled if read wrong and not following the Biblical hermeneutic and following the Holy Spirit’s leading within us when coming to truth based on comparing scripture with scripture.
FYI, i don’t claim to be very knowledgible about the Bible, i just know verses related to certain subjects. If i’m coming across that way, i apologize.
OK, back to the verse that seems to plain. What is it really saying? I think the key is finding out what “everlasting fire” means:
(Matthew 25:41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The above verse seems plain enough, but is it? Let’s compare with Jude 1:7:
(Jude 1:7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
When we compare both words in the Strong’s concordance, we find that “Everlasting” and “eternal” are both:
Strong’s g166
αἰώνιος
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
So, we see that both words are the same, so there’s no question that both mean the same thing, so what do they mean. Let’s look at Jude 1:7 again:
(Jude 1:7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
In Jude 1:7, God says those in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha suffered “eternal fire.” Are those cities still burning today? No, they were destroyed many years ago. Likewise, the people were destroyed with the cities. They are not suffering in fire forever, but they have lost something that we don’t realize the enormity of, and that something is eternal life. Non existence is a huge penalty for sin. Just think about it…billions and trillions of years from now, those who died without Christ will still be destroyed, never to exist again while those who died in Christ, or were raptured, will experience life forever. If you want to say eternal life is not eternal, you’ll have to find a verse like Jude 1:7 that relates to the other side of the coin, otherwise, it’s perfectly appropriate to sat that those who are in Christ will live forever with Him, never to be threatened with non existence again.
Back to the verse in question:
(Revelation 14:11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
So, now we see that those who are left behind when the rapture happens, will have no rest day nor night, which is true, because there will still be day and night during the 5 months before the time keepers are destroyed on the last day. The verses about the sun being darkened and the moon not giving her light are to be interpreted spiritually, not literally.
And we see that just as the smoke of Sodom and Gomorrha stopped literally ascending up and those who died in those cities are still dead, never to live again, likewise, those who die with this earth and universe by fire at the end of the world will not be burning forever in a lake of fire, but will be destroyed with this earth and universe. The language of smoke rising forever is figurative, indicating that the judgment of God is permanent and He will never change His mind and bring the unsaved back to life again at some point down the corradoor of eternity.
January 27, 2009 at 3:29 pm |
Sean, you have said much. I don’t have the time to respond to each item, but the Spirit of Truth witnessing within me compels me to comment on some of your points.
1. The expression “weeping [or wailing] and gnashing of teeth” appears 7 times in the N.T. They are: Matt 8:12; 13:42; 13:50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; and Lk 13:28. . This expression has everything to do with Hell, which is being eternally separated from God. To say this expression has to do with “anger” is like saying Sodom & Gomorrah’s sin had to do with a lack of hospitality! The biblical record just won’t support that conclusion.
2. You wrote, “Assuming that’s a literal fire in a literal place called hell in the center of the earth…” No such assumption has ever been made by me. I no more believe Hell is in the center of the earth with a literal fire ascending than I believe Satan has pointed ears and carries a pitchfork, or that Heaven is literally up in sky. God’s Word is first and foremost (though not exclusively) about spiritual matters.
3. You wrote, “…there is the issue of Christ suffering the equivalent of never ending pain, which also flies in the face of logic.” What was Christ’s suffering intended to accomplish? Christ’s atonement meant that He suffered the FULL penalty of sin, which is eternal separation from God in Hell. I don’t presume to understand how this was accomplished in the course of 3 days for even one person, let alone each and every one of God’s elect. That’s a Divine mystery (just like the Trinity), and I believe what the Scriptures declare although my feeble mind can’t grasp it. So, it’s not “an issue” for me. But you’re correct that this flies in the face of logic. Yes, and the gospel of Christ itself flies in the face of logic!
4. And lastly (for the purposes of my response) you also wrote, “So, now we see that those who are left behind when the rapture happens, will have no rest day nor night…” Ah, but the rapture is simultaneous with the Last Day and with the resurrection of the dead and with the sound of the last trump. But that’s another topic (02 Nov 2008 to be precise).
Listen to the illumination of the Holy Spirit; not this cult leader. The stakes are infinitely high: even your eternal soul.
January 27, 2009 at 2:44 pm |
p.s. If there’s any question about souls being destroyed, i think this verse definitively says it:
(Matthew 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
January 27, 2009 at 8:59 pm |
“1. The expression “weeping [or wailing] and gnashing of teeth” appears 7 times in the N.T. They are: Matt 8:12; 13:42; 13:50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; and Lk 13:28. . This expression has everything to do with Hell, which is being eternally separated from God. To say this expression has to do with “anger” is like saying Sodom & Gomorrha’s sin had to do with a lack of hospitality! The biblical record just won’t support that conclusion.”
During the 5 months of torment, that is when God’s judgment will be poured out upon all the unsaved who are not raptured and left behind. It will be a terrible time of pain and suffering beginning with the rapture and a great earthquake and ending with all the unsaved being destroyed in the lake of fire. I do believe there will be terrible suffering, my only point is that to gnash teeth is related to anger in numerous verses in the Bible and that terminology relates perfectly with being cut off when the door of salvation is shut as described in Luke 13:25-28. Here are verses that show that to gnash teeth is related to anger:
(Job 16:9) He teareth me in his wrath, who hateth me: he gnasheth upon me with his teeth; mine enemy sharpeneth his eyes upon me.
(Psalm 37:12) The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
(Lamentations 2:16) All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it.
(Mark 9:18) And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
(Acts 7:54) When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
(Psalm 35:16) With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.
January 27, 2009 at 9:45 pm |
Sean,
I will pray for you Sean, that God in His infinite mercy and grace will remove the veil from your eyes that you may see the truth. That you may see that the doctrine coming out of Family Radio and Harold Camping is a false doctrine and that our God in Heaven, God of all creation, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may walk with you and lead you away from this doctrine before it is too late. Amen.
You see Sean, I was also once a strong follower of Harold Camping, and his teachings not only proved to be false, (1994) but he also caused me to fall away from the Word of God for many years, something which I deeply regret to this day.
January 28, 2009 at 1:19 am |
Will, how do you know your eyes are open? Why is it nobody wants to discuss the Bible, but rather just wants to attack Harold Camping on this forum?
FYI: I found out what torment means apart from Family Radio entirely and believe 100% that what i learned came from the Holy Spirit and not my own mind. You can criticize Harold Camping, but you can’t criticize the Bible:
(Luke 13:23-27) Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity.
(Hebrews 10:30, 31) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(Luke 21:25, 26) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
(1 John 3:18, 19) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
(1 John 4:18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
(Revelation 14:11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Matthew 11:28, 29) Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
January 28, 2009 at 9:47 pm |
Sean,
“By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?” Mat.7:16
“Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.” Mat. 7:17
I’m sure I don’t need to explain these verses to you Sean, because you seem to have a great understanding of the Bible. I have read about much “bad” fruit that came out of Family Radio after the 1994 debacle. If Family Radio was a “good tree”, then it would not have produced any “bad fruit”. And this is not from me Sean, it is from our Lord in Heaven.
No one on this forum is interested in attacking Harold Camping Sean, but everyone on this forum is interested in helping you to see truth. May God bless you and help you through the Holy Spirit and Our Lord Jesus Christ.
January 29, 2009 at 6:56 pm |
“May God bless you and help you through the Holy Spirit and Our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Do we lean on our own understanding when studying the Bible? No, the Bible says we are to listen to the unction from the Holy One that guides our understanding. We must have the mind of Christ and not lean on our own understanding when coming to truth by comparing spiritual with spiritual (scripture with scripture). The Bible has been unsealed, but you and so many others are stifling the unsealed words of God and saying the Lord has not said, when He has. Read Daniel 12:9, 10, Matthew 24:45, Revelation 10:7 and 18:1. Also, look at God’s character and how He used one man to warn the people before a destruction (Noah and Jonah being two examples). It shouldn’t be surprising that God is once again working His will through one man (Harold Camping who you know has studied His word probably more than anyone living today) and is sending forth the true gospel of Jesus Christ to all the world through Family Radio just before the end of the world. Remember, just Noah and his family were saved from the destruction when the flood came…only 8 people, and it’s been estimated that there was over 1 million people alive back then. When God said many enter the wide gate and few find the strait gate, he meant it. I’m 100% secure in my salvation as i have examined myself for many years. When i finally learned the truth about salvation, i didn’t trust in a “sinner’s prayer” anymore because i knew salvation is by grace alone through the hearing of God’s word, the Bible. The Holy Spirit has witnessed with my spirit and assured me that i am saved. For Jeff to call me a servant of satan is wrong. May God have mercy upon him as he’s speaking out of ignoarnce. This isn’t about our minds or Harold Camping’s mind. This is about the mind of Christ and what God, through the Bible, is TRULY saying to His elect today in His unsealed word. The truth of God’s word should be the focus of us all. If God has in fact unsealed His word (which i believe with all my heart, that He has) then it’s incumbent upon everyone out there, to put your bias on the shelf and search the scriptures daily to see if these things are so. Read the 70 page book WE ARE ALMOST THERE! that is freely available from Family Radio and prayerfully consider these things concerning time and judgment. If you truly serve God in Spirit, then you should be interested in what He has to say in His word. You all know Harold Camping was a very respected Bible teacher before the book “1994?” (which has a question mark in the title, by the way). There is no question mark this time. Family Radio is saying with absolute certainty, that May 21, 2011 is the day of the rapture according to the Bible and nothing else. This isn’t “maybe” or “if” this time, this is a culmination of incredible proofs from the Bible that go way beyond coincidence, but are you listening to the unsealed word of God or are you listening to your preconceived notions based on one or two verses that you don’t look beyond when searching for truth in the Bible? Now is the time for us all to have humility and self examination. I need to seek the Lord as well, as i have not been in the word nearly enough lately, but rather have been debating on religious message boards such as this one. In Luke 21, God’s word says take heed to yourselves. Now is the time us all to make our calling and election sure. May God have mercy upon you and show you the truth…the truth of His word. The Bible says God’s word is truth and His word has bee unsealed as Daniel 12:9, 10 said would happen. This will most likely be my last post on this forum as i know these things of God’s word that Family Radio is teaching are not welcome here. Best wishes to everyone…take care.
January 30, 2009 at 8:57 am |
Here’s the acid test as to where the 2011 followers true faith resides: why don’t they give away all their earthly possessions?
They truly believe 21 May 2011 for them will be the end; consequently, they should have no objections at all to divesting themselves of their earthly possessions since they won’t be needed after 21 May 2011.
They can start this very day by closing out whatever mutual funds, 401(K) or other retirement monies you have. In fact, everyone professing a belief in the 2011 predictions should be doing this. None of you will ever need any of this mammon.
You should have no hesitation whatsoever in doing this. Remember James 1:21-25. True belief is born out of action!
January 30, 2009 at 9:02 am |
Sean wrote, “The Bible has been unsealed…If God has in fact unsealed His word (which i believe with all my heart, that He has) then it’s incumbent upon everyone out there, to put your bias on the shelf and search the scriptures daily to see if these things are so.”
But then the very next words Sean typed instructed everyone to read the words of his leader, Harold Camping.
January 30, 2009 at 9:50 am |
Some folks are quick to say this is an anti FR blog site, but the content suggests otherwise.
Of the 91 different postings, only about 4 contain material that would be deemed “unfaithful” by today’s FR organization. That’s 87 out of 91 — about 95%.
The facts speak for themselves. I mention this stat not to align this site to FR, but to remind people how faithful FR was for many years. They ascribed to sound, reformed theology and doctrine for decades — as did their leader.
This is why it’s so sad to see the sound labours of the past being diminished and undermined by the teachings of the present. Not unlike Solomon in his final years.
January 30, 2009 at 7:38 pm |
Jeff said: “I would say to those who are boldly teaching otherwise to “get thee behind [us] Satan””
Obviously, that was an insinuation that i’m following satan, which is what i was referring to in my last post.
Jeff said: “Sean, you can start this very day by closing out whatever mutual funds, 401(K) or other retirement monies you have. In fact, everyone professing a belief in Harold Camping’s 2011 predictions should be doing this. None of you will ever need any of this mammon.”
I have no savings and am currently on food stamps. I don’t even have money for a haircut (and it’s getting long) so i think i pass your acid test with flying colors.
I’m on the computer everyday telling people the truth about the end of the church age and also telling them that the end of this world is very near. No, this isn’t lip service, this is doing the will of God. Not to say at all, that i’m a perfect example of a Christian. No way, i’m very imperfect, but i do know God has saved me and inspires me to study His word and share His word with others. Whatever glory is to be gotten, He gets it all as He is the force behind it all. We are merely dust that soon passes away and is no more.
Here’s an acid test for you. Read the online book WE ARE ALMOST THERE with KJV Bible in hand, and do so with an open mind, prayerfully asking God to open your understanding, and then see where the Lord leads you. You will never know the truth if you don’t search for it while allowing God to teach you His truth in His word. God says His people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. The Bible says many are ‘eating and drinking’ with the ‘drunken’ and will be saying “Lord, Lord” on that day and the only answer will be rejection (Luke 13:23-28). If God’s word has been unsealed (which it has) we should all want to know about it. Search for truth and if you think WE ARE ALMOST THERE is poison rather than Bible based truth, the Bible says poison can’t hurt you anyway, so what’s your excuse? Of course, convincing does nothing to advance the gospel. God must open the spiritual ears and eyes. May God show you the truth of His word and may His will be done.
February 2, 2009 at 7:34 am |
Sean,
Please see my comment under 28 Jan 2009’s posting. Jeff