NEW UPDATE: If you are a follower of Harold Camping or a listener of Family Radio, please see the posting for 13 November 2009.
How are we to understand passages like Ephesians 4, which indicates that Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth and from there led captivity captive? Or I Peter 3:19 or 20, where it says that in the spirit He preached to the souls in Hades, who formerly did not obey in the days of Noah? How do we put all this together?
Much of the misunderstanding is a result of a lack of understanding of what Christ did for us on the cross. A lot of people talk about the fact that He shed His blood for our sins…that He died for our sins… that He hung on the cross. Those are all very biblical statements.
However, when it comes to the fact that He descended into the lower parts of the earth, or as Jesus said in Matthew 12, “I must be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth,” many people misunderstand what this really means. The purpose of today’s Spreading God’s Word posting is to try to clear up some of these misunderstandings.
The big problem that Christ had to face was God’s judicial statement that “the wages of sin is death.” God did not merely have physical death in view here but also a much worse type of death – a spiritual death where we are eternally separated from God in hell. This is the penalty that had to be paid in order for Christ to be our Substitute and Savior.
Mankind is destined for hell because we are all sinners. In order to save us, it was necessary for God not only to find us in our depraved and desperate condition, but He also had to pay the penalty for our sin – and that penalty was the equivalent of Jesus spending an eternity in hell paying for our sins.
Hell will be the destination of all the unsaved on Judgment Day when they stand trial before the Judge of Heaven and Earth. But in another sense, hell also aptly describes a relationship with God. To be under God’s wrath is to be in hell. The Bible describes hell with all kinds of dreadful language; however, ultimately it’s all focusing on the fact that those who are subject to hell are in terrible trouble with God and His wrath is being poured out upon them.
Since God’s wrath was being poured out upon Christ during the atonement, it would be correct to say that Jesus was enduring hell at this time. While large drops like blood were dripping down from His brow in Gethsemane and while He stood in judgment before Pilate, and while He hung on the cross – throughout all of this it was as if He had gone down to hell. This is seen in its terrible climax when He cries out, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?”
That’s hell.
Before we are saved we’re slaves of Satan. We are entirely under his jurisdiction and his domain since He is our master. But when God saves us, we are freed from bondage to Satan and we become bondservants of the Lord Jesus Christ. We become His captives and He takes us out of hell. This is what is meant by “He led captivity captive.”
Therefore, when Ephesians 4 declares that Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth, it is indicating that He had to come where those who are destined for hell dwell. He came into our presence and in order to rescue us He had to endure hell for our sins.
Jesus did not go to a physical place called hell. That’s reserved for the unsaved after Judgment Day. The biblical account makes this clear. And when would He have gone there? As he hung on the cross, He was still a complete personality in body and soul until He finally said, “Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit.”
At this moment in His spirit He went to be with the Father. His body, however, was put in the grave where (and this is quite important) it did not see corruption. The decay and corruption of our physical bodies when we die is part of the curse of sin.
Acts 2:31 says, “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” The resurrection of Jesus Christ is proof that the payment for sin had been paid in full – the penalty of eternal damnation had been satisfied. Also, the fact that His body did not see corruption is another witness to the victory of the cross.
When Scripture says in Acts 2:31 that Jesus’ soul was not left in hell it is indicating He was no longer suffering God’s wrath as the punishment for all the sins of His people. His suffering – from Gethsemane to the Cross – had finally satisfied God’s wrath. Christ had endured hell on our behalf.
Some may point to 1 Peter 3:18-19 and say, “Doesn’t this say that Jesus in His spirit descended into hell?” Since the Bible never contradicts itself, our answer to this must be no.
1 Peter 3:18-19 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison”
The word hell isn’t even found in 1 Peter 3 — it’s the word prison. This passage says that Christ spoke to the spirits in prison. Actually, since the Bible serves as its own interpreter, we can look back at 1 Peter Chapter 1 for a further clarification:
1 Peter 1:10-11 God says, “Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”
The spirit of Christ spoke through the Old Testament prophets, including Noah, to the prisoners (the spirits in prison) in their day. Who were the spirits in prison? They were the unsaved of their day…the prisoners of Satan. Some will say, “Wait a minute now! When did the Spirit of Jesus preach to Old Testament people?” Well, actually Christ preached to them throughout the entire Old Testament period. He spoke through Noah; He spoke through Jeremiah; He spoke through Ezekiel; He spoke through Isaiah; He spoke through Abraham; He spoke through Moses; and so on. It’s no different for us today: the spirit of Christ is speaking to the spirits in prison (the unsaved) as we faithfully proclaim the Gospel.
This did not – and does not — require a physical descent of Christ into hell.
Please let us know what you think. Is our understanding of this topic consistent with everything the Bible has to say on this matter? The only thing we desire is Truth.
To God Be The Glory!
November 30, 2006 at 12:03 pm |
Thank you for attempting to tackle this issue. It is my understanding that Christ did descend into the bowels of the earth. That is, it was much more than a metaphor but an actual occurence in the life (or should I say, after-life) of Christ. 1 Peter 3 19-20 says that Jesus “went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah.” This seems to be saying that Christ spoke to a very specific group. Also, 1 Peter 4:6 says that the gospel was “proclaimed even to the dead.” Isaiah 24:22 also uses prison as a synonym for hell: They will be herded together like prisoners bound in a dungeon; they will be shut up in prison and be punished after many days.” When the full truth of these passages is revealed I think that we both will be amazed and awed by the power of our God. Praise Him.
November 30, 2006 at 3:19 pm |
I saw the title of this post and thought – fantastic topic, but i’m heading to bed in a mo!
I will try remember to return and pass a reasoned comment!
Every blessing
Maria in the UK
http://www.inhishands.co.uk
December 26, 2006 at 6:50 pm |
Jesus said himself, as jonas was 3 days and nights in the whales belly, so shall the son of man be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. matt 12:40. Jesus told the thief that today he would be with him in paradise. Luke 16:19- tells us 2 men died, one went to abrahams bosom and one to hell. a conversation betwwen abraham and the man in hell was a gulf was fixed so that one could not cross either side– paradise and hell fire. these are the parts of the heart of the earth. After jesus rose he first as our high priest had to take his blood into heaven and offer it on the mercy seat as hebrews tells us, thats why he said touch me not to mary at the tomb. he led captivity captive and emptied out paradise and took them to heaven, now all of the heart of the earth is hell fire Isah. 5:14.
January 25, 2007 at 9:01 pm |
Jesus said “it is finished”……that means nothing else had to be done to pay for sins. I don’t beleive Jesus suffered in any way after the cross.
March 5, 2007 at 2:24 pm |
>Jesus Christ is proof that the payment for sin had been paid in full – the penalty of eternal damnation had been satisfied
Is eternal damnation the price or penalty for sin?
If so, Christ did not agree with that; for on the third day he arose.
Christ must have agreed with what the Bible teaches about the penalty for sin.
God said to Adam and Eve that the penalty for sin was death.The satan in the garden, said ye shall not surely die. It’s apparent which one people believe when they believe that man lives forever in a place called hell.
The O.T. and the N.T. agree with God. Ez. 18:4,and 18:20 Ro. 6:23
Christ paid the price or penalty for sin, which was death. For if the penalty for sin was this eternal life in a place called hell, Christ would still be there paying for sin.
The two Greek words of gehenna and hades only refer to the grave, and a place of destruction. The Bible teaches that the wicked are destroyed, and are no more.
March 5, 2007 at 3:30 pm |
The individual above proposes an outrageous falsehood by proclaiming that when unregenerate sinners die they simply cease to exist — without any eternal punishment being meted out by a holy and just God. This is a doctrine of annihilation that simply doesn’t square with the Bible’s gospel! According to person above, sinners simply die. Like old soldiers, I suppose they just fade away… or like an old Cary Grant western, they pony off into the peaceful sunset.
Isn’t that a sweet picture — one Satan himself would love to have all unregenerate people believe.
This teaching is supported by cult groups such as Jehovah Witnesses. They deny the existence of hell. Perhaps the person offering this comment is a JW. In order to get around the doctrine of hell taught in so many places in Scripture, a new teaching was needed — and that teaching was annihilation. This doctrine teaches the result of sin is physical death and once a person is dead, they are dead. A subset within this belief system believe that there will be a resurrection and every unbeliever will stand before God and give an account for their life but then when they are judged they’ll simply be annihilated, never to face any type of judicial penalty for their sins.
This is a convenient doctrine for anyone who wants to live a major sinful life on earth without accountability. Can you imagine life on earth with the same type of law? A person is found guilty of a crime and is never punished for it.
The Bible’s truth paints a rather different picture for us. Christ fully paid the penalty for sin for all the people He came to save — His elect. Unregenerate sinners are utterly without hope. Apart from Christ, they are dead in their sins and must suffer the punishment outlined in Scripture — an eternity forever separated from God in a place called hell. That is not a very sweet picture, is it.
July 8, 2007 at 5:40 pm |
While I am not going to let this debate determine my relationship with the Lord, I must say that I have always believed that if it is in the Bible, God has a reason for it being there. I may not understand it, but perhaps I will at some point. In the final analysis, my salvation does not hang on whether Jesus descended or He didn’t, but the explanation given is very interesting and seems to have been researched quite well. Thank you.
September 20, 2007 at 1:04 am |
I just want to say that we looked at this for a short time tonight in Bible Study and the explanation that we were given was that Jesus descended into a place called paradise and spoke to those that lived before Jesus but obeyed God’s commandments. Paradise not being heaven but a place where these people were dwelling until Jesus came to them. On the cross He told the thief “Today you shall be in paradise with me”. He didn’t say heaven. I don’t know which explanation is truth but I am going to look into this deeper as it intrigues me. I want to know more about it. Thank you for listening.
November 4, 2007 at 7:53 pm |
God said all spirits are mine and return unto me.This being the case how could jesus preach to spirits in prison when spirits return to God.
November 6, 2007 at 6:39 pm |
Robert,
What verse are you referring to in your comment? Scripture tells us in 1 Peter 3:18-19 — “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.” Those who are unsaved are slaves of Satan, in a sort of spiritual prison.
Thank you for your comment.
December 16, 2007 at 3:00 pm |
I have always choked on the words in the Apostle Creed that is recited in our church “HE descended into hell” – in fact, I refuse to say that sentence in my mind or with my mouth – a goodly part of life on earth has always been “hell” – upon birth, JESUS endured 33+ years of it – as GOD in human flesh HE didn’t have to descend any further than the hell on earth – HE endured it, as we all do in today’s sinful society – “paradise” is the day you accept JESUS as your personal SAVIOR – there cannot be a higher mountain top accession than that – I believe that JESUS saved me from eternal damnation and I pray daily to be HIS effective servant whilst here on earth – to bring non-believers to the foot of HIS mountain for their own climb – JESUS did descend – physically, from the cross to the grave – his spirit ascended to welcome believers to eternal life in heaven – suddenly, going home has a whole new meaning – timing is HIS choice, after our labors are done – semantics and Bible expertise aside, where will you be when your heart beats its last?
December 27, 2007 at 2:18 pm |
Your article was not based on the word of God. Rich you are right to say nothing else had to be done to pay for sin, but he made a trip to paradise to give Noah’s generation a chance for salvation. If God failed to give the souls in Noah’s days a chance to repent, then he would not have died for the sins of the World. 1Pet. 3:19..Where did Christ go after his death to preach if not to those in prison or paradise. Luke16:19 Let me ask you to explain what prison means to you. You never did explain what you meant by the statement. It is my understanding that Christ received a glorified body after the resurrection and went and proclaimed the Gospel of salvation to the spirits in prison,who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah. 1Peter 4:6says the gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Isa. 24:22 also uses prison as a synonym for hell:Thy word is truth:
February 26, 2008 at 3:23 am |
The Apole’s Creed tates, “…..he died on the cross and descended into hell….” So it is clear that Jesus went into hell after his death. I don,t think his going into hell refers his suffering from Gathsamane to Cross or his separation from Father. He went to hell. But why?
March 22, 2008 at 9:55 pm |
For more truth go to rewardingfaith.com
Click on “The Descension”
March 25, 2008 at 8:08 am |
Jesus had to descend into hell. Besides being what the Bible tells us, it was necessary for Him to go through the suffering as payment for our sins. He went there and did it for us who are born again. He not only had to suffer here on earth with the scourging and crucifixion, but also in the place where God will send all sinners who will not repent.
March 25, 2008 at 4:27 pm |
Will,
Can you please provide some biblical evidence for your interpretation? Our posting addressed the following passages: Matthew 12; Acts 2:31; 1 Peter 1:10-11; 1 Peter 3:19-20; Ephesians 4.
When did Christ descend into Hell? Just before Christ physically died He said two important things that make His descent into a physical place called Hell an impossibility: “IT IS FINISHED” and “Father, into Thy Hands I commend My Spirit”.
John 19:30 — IT IS FINISHED. The work of the atonement had been fully accomplished; there was no further work for Christ to do. He didn’t have to pay the penalty for anyone else’s sin after He uttered those words. If His work of atonement were not fully finished, He couldn’t have spoken those words.
Luke 23:46 — Father, into Thy Hands I commend My Spirit. At this moment, in His Spirit essence, He went to be with the Father. However, His body was put in the grave where it did not see corruption. This is another very important clue God gives us that Christ’s work of atonment was fully completed. The decay and corruption of our physical bodies when we die is part of the curse of sin.
Can you please reconcile these two verses with your understanding that Christ went to a physical place called Hell? Jeff & Cindy
March 25, 2008 at 5:15 pm |
There is one passage, and I sincerely apologize if my interpretation is incorrect,
Acts 2:31 – He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Is this not speaking of the soul of Jesus Christ? Or is this the soul of David?
March 28, 2008 at 8:02 am |
Jeff & Cindy,
I know that you both must be very busy with your own lives and keeping up with this blog site, but if you get a chance I would appreciate a response to my last posting here. I want to be corrected if I am wrong. Thank you and God bless you both.
March 28, 2008 at 9:09 am |
Will,
We understand Acts 2:31 to be referring to the fact that Jesus’ soul was not left in Hades. In the context of Acts 2:31, Hades has the meaning of eternal damnation. By the Scriptures saying that Jesus’ soul was not left in Hades, we belive it’s instructing us that He was no longer suffering God’s wrath as the punishment for all the sins of His people. His suffering – from Gethsemane to the Cross – had finally satisfied God’s wrath. Christ had endured hell on our behalf.
The fact that Christ’s body did not see corruption emphasized the victory of the cross was fully accomplished. The fact of the resurrection emphasized the penalty of eternal damnation had been paid in every sense. Jeff & Cindy
April 24, 2008 at 1:11 pm |
Please check out, rewardingfaith.com and search “The Descension”
I think you will be enlightened.
April 25, 2008 at 1:29 am |
My posts are not being accepted.
April 25, 2008 at 1:31 am |
I have had to change my name and email address to have my posts accepted. Am I being filtered out? I was posting as Gorilladad.
April 25, 2008 at 7:36 am |
Jeff & Cindy,
There is a problem with your website that I have never encountered before and may be related to Gorilladad’s problem. Every time I go from one topic to another on your website, I am getting the following message:
Stop running this script? A script on this page is causing Internet Explorer to run slowly. If it continues to run, your computer may become unresponsive.
Yes No
There is a “script” problem. I hope this helps you.
Will
April 25, 2008 at 11:08 am |
Jeff and Cindy,
Well I just tried posting a reply with my original name and email address and it failed to show up again. I did get on some WordPress tech blogs and have seen people complain of this symptom, but I have not seen any resolution posted.
April 26, 2008 at 10:20 am |
This is a test to see if failure to post replies is related to name or email address.
August 30, 2008 at 12:44 pm |
How about this question, folks? Did Jesus preach to all those who died before while in hell so as to allow all the opportunity for salvation, i.e. “He led captivity captive”?
September 28, 2008 at 9:03 pm |
Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I had one question with regards to your comment,
“This is seen in its terrible climax when He cries out, ‘My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?’ ”
I is my understanding that this was verbalized for the benefit of Jesus’ audience, which was predominantly Jewish. These people knew the Old Testement very well, especially Psalms 22 which begins with My God, my God! Why have you foresaken me? This Psalm was written about 700 hundreds years before Jesus’s time and well before crucifixion was a known punishment. When the people who were watching Jesus die on the cross heard this, they would have instantly recalled Psalm 22, which if you read it prophesied how Jesus would die.
I would be similar if we heard the first sentence of “I pledge allegance to the flag of the United States of America.” We all know what follows. We can all finish the pledge if we wanted to. So when the Jewish audience heard from Jesus say the first sentence of Psalms 22, they then knew this was the Messiah.
October 12, 2008 at 3:48 pm |
Jim, thank you for your last post, here. I had never heard this about when Jesus cried out. The only thing I have learned of was that the Father may have turned away from the Son during that moment of sin that He took upon Him.
I do find it, at the very least, quite interesting of what you have shared with us.
Thank you! -jz
October 13, 2008 at 7:44 pm |
Remember when Mary spoke to Jesus at the tomb. He said, “dont touch me for I have not yet ascended to my Father”. He had truly risen from the dead as he spoke to Mary, so where did he go? He was gone when they got to the tomb early in the morning.
When Christ died he died for everyone, not just those living at that time or in the future. He released many souls and took back the keys to Heaven and Earth.
Just like Jesus preached on earth he preached in Hades. Some listened and believed and others would not.
November 4, 2008 at 11:45 am |
KB,
I think the verse you cited is simply saying that when Christ had finished His work, He would ascend to the Father.
Christ in His Spirit went to be with the Father when He gave up the ghost on the cross. However, this was not the ascension. His body was put in the grave where (very significantly) it did not see corruption. Then He rose on Sunday morning and this meant that in His spirit He no was longer in Heaven. Christ did not ascend to the Father until forty days later.
Our role in the world is to be an ambassador of Christ…to represent Christ…to proclaim the Gospel. Until we’ve completed our task, we cannot go to be with Him eternally.
So we can’t stay with Him — and this is what Mary wanted. She wanted to continue to be with Jesus. Earlier in the gospel of John Christ had said, “If I don’t go to the Father, then the Holy Spirit will not come.” And it was God’s sovereign plan that Jesus would go to the Father and the Holy Spirit would then be poured out.
November 19, 2008 at 9:49 pm |
I was wondering where you got all this information- did you get this just from the bible or did you look at commentaries/theology books? This is a very interesting subject and I wondered if you would be able to send (or just post here) me some links/books that you used/referenced. Thanks!
November 20, 2008 at 10:48 am |
Mai,
Everything we (Cindy & I) post and all of our comments should be rooted solely in the Bible — Sola Scriptura. Over the years I’ve made many, many notes in my Bible and done lots of reading. Some of the material is good; a great deal of it is not.
Previously I commented that the airwaves & cyberspace are filled with self-proclaimed experts (which I am NOT) claiming to possess a great amount of knowledge on scriptural matters. When we look up their proof texts, we find conflicting teachings. Since the Bible never contradicts itself, we know one of two things: we either do not have a complete understanding of the doctrine/teaching before us; or our position is wrong. On the other hand, if our understanding on a biblical matter is supported by everything else the Bible says, then we can feel reasonably confident that we’re on solid ground scripturally.
In a nutshell, that’s the litmus test I use — and please forgive my mixing of metaphors
Jeff
January 19, 2009 at 10:54 am |
Nice remark Jeff & Cindy on Nov. 20,2008.
Paradise is down. Jesus descended with the thief that day down into Paradise. The other two thieves went down across the gulf from Paradise where the rich man still resides. Jesus rose himself at the end of the third day, walked the Earth briefly, talked with Mary, ascended to the power of God, descended back to the Earth for forty more days then ascended again.
Now did Jesus cross over the gulf down in the Earth to talk with the rich man, or the two thieves or any other souls there? He could if he desired. Scripture doesn’t really say. Greek manuscripts say He preached to spirits, not souls.
April 5, 2009 at 8:41 am |
The wages of sin is death. Since Christ had no sin death couldn’t contain him. Therefore when christ said “it is finished” and “father into thy hands I commit my spirit” all the work upon the cross was done for us. ( the sin for which he died ) He is our kinsman reedemer that whoever believes in him will never taste a spiritual death. A believer in Christ Jesus will be born twice ( a physical birth and a spiritual birth) and die only once ( a physical death.))Where a non believer will be born only of the flesh and will die twice, spiritual and physical). It is my belief that his attonement on the cross was fully efficient.
Please respond:
Thanks,
Gary
April 6, 2009 at 3:22 pm |
Gary,
You’ve said it well. I agree with every statement you’ve made. Thanks for taking the time to comment. Jeff
April 11, 2009 at 6:10 am |
Jesus descent into Hades or Hell is also seen in Colosians 2 : 15 where it is written that “he disarmed principalities and powers and made a public example of them, truimphing over them in him”.
April 11, 2009 at 2:32 pm |
(I am a self-proclaimed expert……so listen to me.) The Holy Bible is the Truth, the Holy Spirit is the interpreter, and Jesus is the answer! I can’t wait to ask Jesus questions such as these when I finally get to meet Him face to face!! Can you?–Mark
May 5, 2009 at 8:38 pm |
This is a topic that I think we do not have sound evidence of. Isaiah 55:8-9 says that GODS thoughts are far beyond our thoughts. Some things we will not understand until we get the Heaven. I will put this on my list to ask him once I get to Heaven.
Be Blessed,
June 3, 2009 at 10:48 pm |
As Jonah, was three days in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of man be three days in the belly of the earth. Now, I have heard some say this does not mean that He was in Hell, but just buried in the earth. But that does pose a problem, for certainly His body was buried in the tomb. But where was His Spirit? Well, the answer lies in all the supporting scripture such as 1 Peter 3 18-19. This is a Just, Loving and Merciful God providing, or more accurately, offering a way out to those that knew not the plan or way of salvation. Some days I am so inspired with His Mercy, that I feel like dragging a fire hose into Hell myself. But, indeed there are other days in which I am desperate for the lap of Jesus and my desire is to welcome heaven now.
June 28, 2009 at 2:45 pm |
I believe Jesus did descend into the lower parts, the place of the spirits of the dead. I believe the Gospel of Salvation is preached to every single person. If they did not hear it while they’re on earth, then they will hear it when they die and come down to the place of the dead, which is not the same place as hell but I believe it’s more like a waiting area for the dead until Christ returns.
It says in Romans 3:25 – whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed.
The people who lived and died before the Cross were still under the law – meaning if Jesus did not provide His sacrifice, God would judge these people according to His laws and everyone would be guilty. This does not include only Jews, who had God’s written laws, but also Gentiles who had His written laws in their hearts. They are a law to themselves. (Rom 2:14-15).
If Christ did not come to preach the Gospel to those before the Cross then none of them would be saved. God demonstrates His righteousness by giving them a chance to also hear the Gospel.
I imagine Christ went down to the place of the dead and preached to the dead, made diciples out of them and sent them out to preach the Gospel to those in that realm, though I dont have any Scripture to back this part up. I also believe Christ spent more than 3 days in this realm. The Bible says 1 day is like a 1000 years to God and 1000 years is like a day. He had to have spent more than 3 days to be able to reach many..and He had to have made disciples so they can do His work when He left this realm.
June 28, 2009 at 3:14 pm |
If what I’m theorizing is correct then it would mean that anyone who leaves this earth without hearing the Gospel will still get a chance to hear it when they go down to the realm of the dead.
Otherwise, they are still under the law and will be judged by the law.
July 1, 2009 at 2:14 am |
Thai,
I think you are right. I have always believed this.
July 23, 2009 at 8:48 pm |
@Thai & @gorilladad, I don’t think it’s a smart thing to believe things that aren’t backed by biblical proof and are actually spoken against by the Bible. When we start doing that, we start to create religions that don’t align with who God truly is.
The Bible says that after 3 days He arose and subsequently ascended to Heaven (after a short time). This means that He is no longer in the lower parts. You say that He would need more than 3 days to reach many. Do you doubt the inexplicable power of our Living God? Besides, your own argument argues against you: 1 day is like 1000 years to Him. If He did need more than 3 days (which He wouldn’t, as I just stated), 3 days would be like 3000 years. He is controller of all, so if He needed more time He would make more time within that 3 days since He is all-powerful and can literally make time (since He created it in the first place).
You say that He is still there preaching to those who go there when they leave this earth. That can’t be true because He is at the right hand of God our Father in Heaven. That IS in the Bible and is thus proven.
Those who leave this earth not knowing HIm and confessing Him will be judged accordingly when He comes again. Simple enough. There is no second chance in the lower parts.
September 13, 2009 at 11:43 pm |
As a follow-up to Jon’s post:
“It is appointed once for man to die, and after this the judgement” – Hebrews 9:27
No second chances for the dead, folks.
September 15, 2009 at 12:16 am |
Jon and danbush,
So, the innocent child that dies at childbirth, or the poor souls around the world that never hear of Christ are damned? I suppose to an eternity of firey torture?
September 20, 2009 at 1:46 pm |
@gorilladad, a few verses for you to consider (I suggest you take the time to look up verses yourself before posting comments):
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will” Ephesians 1:4-5
“Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the Lord called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name. He made my mouth like a sharpened sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me into a polished arrow and concealed me in his quiver. He said to me, ‘You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor’” Isaiah 49:1-3
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5
“But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles” Galatians 1:15-17
God chooses each of us. He leads us to Him, we don’t lead ourselves to Him. So since He knew us before the world even began, if a child dies at birth that He has chosen, that child is not damned because He has chosen them and will make Himself known to them in some way. For those who have not heard of Christ, they must not have been chosen (yes, it sounds harsh, but find scripture against it and I’ll believe you).
You have to know that there are going to be people damned to Hell. It’s just a reality. It’s hard to understand a loving God that does such a thing, but it’s true. Our second chance is through Christ while we’re here on earth. We don’t get a third chance in Hades.
September 22, 2009 at 12:08 am |
WOW. I most certainly don’t believe in whatever god you are talking about. you are referring to some kind of monster. A creature that would create beings only to torture them for eternity for no fault of there own. Yes, you’re absolutely right – hard to believe.
September 22, 2009 at 8:48 am |
I am talking about the God of the Bible, Yahweh, the Father of Jesus Christ, who is my Lord and Savior. Who is your god?
He did not create us to torture us. We created this mess when Adam and Eve choose a life of independence from God and of sin. God gave us the ability to choose and we choose this.
He created us to live in constant communion with Him. Now that we chose separation from Him, He has called certain of us to be with Him forever, but others not.
If you find this hard to believe and yet call yourself a Christian, I suggest you open up your Bible and read it some time.
September 23, 2009 at 7:03 pm |
http://the-latter-rain.com/what-is-hell.html
September 24, 2009 at 12:55 am |
Jon,
If our fate is predestined, as you said, then how is it that, in your words “God gave us the ability to CHOOSE and we CHOOSE this”. This implies, of course, that we can choose good over evil and therefor can have some impact on our salvation. Of course, we cannot save ourselves. That requires the grace of God. But we can choose to accept that or not.
In my previous reply, I was referring to your previous assertion that those who leave this earth not knowing Him and confessing Him will be damned.
September 25, 2009 at 7:48 am |
Gorilladad,
After being away from my blog for longer than I would have liked, I’ve finally been able to come back and check out the comments. I want to thank you, Jon and Sean for taking the time to post comments recently.
Salvation is entirely of the LORD. We can’t take any credit for it at all…zilch…nada. We can’t even take credit for being able to accept it. Why? Because then our salvation would be 99% God’s grace with 1% man’s works thrown in . People don’t like to describe “accepting” the gospel as a work, but that’s exactly what it is when you boil everything else down. That line of reasoning leads inevitably to this conclusion: God, thru the work of Jesus Christ, made salvation possible for everyone., but it’s up to us whether or not we choose to accept this salvation for ourselves. That means God made salvation POSSIBLE for all, but that Christ actually SAVED no one. In effect, He did all He could do for us, but the onus is still upon our shoulders to reach out and accept this gift.
Scripture doesn’t tell us of a Saviour who comes “offering” the gospel. The gospel isn’t offered, it’s preached. The term “preached” is used 60 times in the NT. The Good News is preached and there’s never an offer linked to that proclamation. Nowhere in the Scriptures do we ever find the idea that God is begging or pleading with sinners to “accept” His Son.
So, if God makes no offer of salvation to the non-elect, then neither should we. That’s a false and misleading method of trying to bring people into the Kingdom. We are to preach and proclaim the Good News, and God creates in his elect a new heart…He gives them new life…he raises up their spiritually dead souls.
John 10:28 — And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
The idea of an offer of salvation comes from the belief that spiritually dead people can regenerate themselves by their own free will unto salvation. They’ll be able to do that when physically dead people can raise themselves back to physical life, but that will never happen.
I agree that we have freedom to make choices. I can choose who to spend time with, what to eat, when to get up in the morning, where to live, and how to spend my money. But all of the choices we make will be based upon our nature — and the nature of unregenerate man is sinful and at enmity with God. Even their best of deeds by the world’s standards are as filthy rags in God‘s sight. The analogy of a hungry lion hammers all of this home at least for me: place two plates in front of a lion — one contains a salad, the other raw meat — which one will the lion freely choose? According to his nature, he’ll obviously always choose the meat. That’s his natural choice.
(John 17:2 KJV) As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
The Lord Jesus Christ gives eternal life to His children. He doesn’t offer it to the world but He gives it to His children.
To God Be The Glory!
September 25, 2009 at 8:32 am
Jeff & Cindy,
Thanks for that reply. That’s pretty much what I was trying to get at, but I’m not always the clearest with my words. You laid it out very clearly and accurately. Thanks.
September 24, 2009 at 2:05 pm |
Noah was a preacher of righteousness. Only he and his family were saved from the worldwide destruction. 8 people and it’s been estimated that there were over 1 million people alive back then. Was the Gospel a failure?
September 25, 2009 at 12:51 am |
No, the Gospel was not a failure. Many people chose wickedness over righteousness.
September 26, 2009 at 7:49 am |
Sean,
Where did you first come under the teaching that there is no doctrine of eternal hell, that without exception all of world’s churches are now ruled by Satan, and that Christ will return on 21 May 2011?
What individual or which institution opened your eyes to these teachings? Who has begotten you in this faith the way Paul begot the people of Corinth in 1 Corinthians 4:15?
Are you willing to share that with us? Thanks, Jeff
September 30, 2009 at 11:19 am |
To those of you who insist that you can only become saved if you physically hear the words of the Gospel, please explain how someone who is physically deaf could ever be saved, or a child in the womb who died before his/her hearing was developed.
October 2, 2009 at 8:59 am |
Dovetail,
Certainly, the LORD can save the deaf and those without any mental faculties. And certainly he can save a child in the womb. Scripture bears this out.
God Himself insists that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. That’s not my own personal teaching. I can’t explain to you “HOW” He divinely accomplishes this. But I know that He does because the Bible declares it.
The doctrine of unconditional election is entirely biblical. God is in sovereign control of every detail of history. Ephesians 1:11: “. . (God) works ALL THINGS according to the counsel of His will.”
God hasn’t answered all of our questions on this side of eternity. But I am filled with humble gratitude to God for His unmerited mercy that He has shwon toward me.
Thank you for commenting. Jeff
September 30, 2009 at 2:08 pm |
Checking a predestination premise….Take a look at these verses:
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
October 2, 2009 at 11:14 am |
Jeff & Cindy,
I am aware of that passage in Romans and agree with the fact that God is sovereign and nothing can stand in the way of Him saving His elect. So my next point is when He says repeatedly “he who has an ear, let him hear”…isn’t this referring to spiritual hearing not physical ears?
October 2, 2009 at 11:41 am |
Dovetail,
Yes. Sounds like we’re in agreement. Jeff
October 2, 2009 at 2:14 pm |
I just stumbled upon this blog today because I had a student come up to me and tell me that he had been taught by another youth pastor that Jesus descended into Hell. So I of course (being a youth pastor) told him (like I tell all of my students) not to just listen to what someone else says about the topic, but to look and see what God’s word says about the topic. I also explained to him that, Just because the Apostles creed says it, doesn’t make it a true statement. The Apostles Creed isn’t the inspired word of God.
So thanks for the blog, I’ll tell him to come here and get a better grip on his theological beliefs. I love discussing tough theology because all it can do is make us sharper. Iron sharpens Iron. (Now I’m going to get back to writing my paper on the Assyrians for one of my seminary classes. Thanks for the break)
God Bless
October 3, 2009 at 7:00 am |
Drummerchief,
Thanks for taking the time to comment. Over the last three years we have published approx 90 different posts on a wide variety of topics — and have garnered over 600 comments from visitors around the world.
My suggestion is under the “ARCHIVES” section on the right side to click on any of the months listed and you’ll see all of the postings for that month. There’s also a search tool feature directly below the ARCHIVES.
Thanks again for visiting, and for taking the time to offer your comments. We look forward to hearing from you again. Jeff
To God Be The Glory!
October 19, 2009 at 12:14 pm |
Thank you so much for the wonderful insight to this question. Your answer has opened mine and my family’s eyes…and hearts to such a complex topic.